How to create a unique e-commerce business that scales (with Victor from Ben&Vic)

The most common is wanting to do everything thoroughly. The most common mistake is to say you do meta, you do Google, you do Tik Tok and I opened a pop up and I did it. In fact, you are on all fronts and that is the case in any company, not just the commercial ones. You have the same subject, you have to, I have the same subjects. When you want to launch a lot of things at the same time, you look back six months later and it didn't work. Hello, you are listening to Loyoly Talks, the podcast that talks about e-commerce. Once a month, I welcome an inspiring personality from the French e-commerce ecosystem for unpretentious discussions between friends about the subjects that fascinate them. The aim is to decipher e-commerce trends and share concrete tips to make your e-shop a hit. I'm Joseph Aubry, co-founder of the blog U loyalty and referral, which allows you to engage your customers through more than fifty mechanisms. Sharing, user content, customer reviews and much more to increase your LTV and decrease your CAC. If you like Loyoy Tools, subscribe and don't hesitate to leave us stars on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to support us. Enjoy listening. Bon Victor, I'm super happy to be on the podcast. Thanks for the invitation. Then welcome to the new offices for those who have already followed the previous episodes. You've noticed that the decor has changed. I didn't know the old decor, but it's very nice here anyway. So I'm really happy. We're going to talk about quite a few subjects. Today's episode is quite global, quite macro, which I think will be extremely rewarding for those who listen. Overall, the issue we are going to address together is managing performance, managing performance in line with a holistic vision of e-commerce. You and Bénédicte have an agency that manages several subjects, as you are going to tell us. So it's interesting to get your take on the holistic approach of an e-merchant and how to maintain performance. Absolutely. It's heating up. It's heating up for me. We're off. Let's go. Do you want me to introduce Benédivik? With pleasure. OK. I'm Victor, the co-founder of Bennvik. Bennvik was initially an acquisition agency that became a group almost two and a half years ago. Group because we also have a no code agency that specializes in webflow. We have Benenvie, which mainly supports e-merchants in all their online acquisition strategies, with a consulting growth marketing division as well, and we recently set up Certifive with Maxime, who is the former CRM e-offer manager at Asphalte. And there, we take care of all the retention issues, so CRM, WhatsApp, SMS for e-merchants. It's great, there are lots and lots of activities. Yeah, it's true that your days aren't too long. The days are busy, but it's going well. So, how long have you been doing this? You said it, four, four, four years. The group is more than four years old, it will be five years old in April. Great. And so, first question, it will be a bit of a look back at the time you started the Ben NGIC adventure. How have the issues faced by e-merchants changed a little? Have you noticed that there has been a change or are they still facing the same problems? No, there has been a change. So already, there has been a change in terms of acquisition. The acquisition levers have evolved a lot in four or five years. The way we managed at the time is no longer the way we manage now. Many things are automated, and the creative aspect is increasingly important. E-merchants were very focused on acquisition levers. They swore by acquisition. Now, we are returning to a slightly more omnichannel vision. We are also returning to retail issues, where retail may have been abandoned at a certain time or in any case was less present and we said to ourselves I can launch an e-commerce and I don't need to have a physical presence. This is less and less true. We are going back, going back to basics, in any case, to the fundamentals. So the challenges have changed a lot over the last four years. And today, you would say that what are the big levers of growth that brands have already started to explore in the context of these new challenges? So if I leave aside the whole paid strategy part, which still exists with different approaches, you are already going to have an issue with retention, which was a little less exploited before, before focusing on acquisition, even if many brands had finally understood it, some brands had already understood it at the time we were focusing on acquisition, so now we are more concerned with how do I make sure that my customer base repurchases how do I make sure that this customer who cost me money at the beginning, repeat, there is the implementation of new levers, I am thinking in particular of affiliation, which is ultra-terrorist, which is a lever used either by large accounts that are not very closely monitored or in any case very little used by e-merchants who were doing between one and five million euros. At the time, we swore that it was through pay and influence. Now, there are still subjects of influence, but they are managed differently. There are subjects of affiliation. There is a return to organic or e-commerce, SEO was not necessarily a key issue except for big players. Four years ago, you would meet very few brands that said my first layer, the first component I put in place, is SEO. And now we're back to this kind of acquisition strategy. Then there are no ultra-innovative things. I think it's more a return to omnichannel, as I said, with affiliation, influence, SEO, payd, a retention issue where you also intervene with Yoli on loyalty, for example. Okay, and yeah, typically what I get the impression of is that there's been a big explosion in acquisition costs. The brands have gone back to basics a bit, at least in terms of channels that are more organic and typically influence. I'm thinking of a good example of a big hype where we're going to generate a lot of notoriety. In this case, we will always do it via affiliation, but with a more heroic logic to be able to better follow these cases. What do you mean, it's a bit like that or it's a bit like that. Typically, in fact the difference with affiliation is that with affiliation you have the possibility to pay for the result. So in fact your risk taking is very low, your ROI is necessarily relevant if you have calculated in advance the com that you were going to give to the person who did the affiliation. Unlike an influencer where you are going to pay and you are going to say ok, the post is worth ten thousand, I'm putting in ten thousand. What will happen next Four years ago, five years ago, when you had big influencers who were making placements, it worked really well. Now, as we can see, you have people who make five posts in a day and it doesn't work anymore. And besides, we don't have an influence agency, so I'm not going to go into this area of expertise that I'm less familiar with. But you see that brands are returning to micro-influencers rather than top influencers with millions of followers. And so to come back to your topic on affiliation, there is the subject of ROI, which is in fact the only problem: it's the volume because you pay for results. But do you, do you have enough people working in affiliation to generate volume? You have fewer than those who work in influence and who will have a front-end payment because for them, it's more work for a less certain gain. Yeah, that's right. So that's the whole issue. And there's a little bias on the affiliation side. So it's a subject we have a good handle on because for all the consulting and big consulting we have, we have how much it brings in. There are two types of affiliation, there's the affiliation where you pay according to the result and that's the holy grail because it's heroic and there's the affiliation that's going to cannibalize a little bit of what you already have in place. Typically, when you're on promotional sites and the person is on Yoli and on the Yoli site, let's say it's a merchant, you enter the Yoli promo code and you come across programs, things like that. From the moment the person has seen the promo code or used it, there is a com that goes out to the person in affiliation, Except that the affiliate, sorry. Except that the problem is that if the person hadn't found the promo code, they would still have bought something. They went ahead with the purchase. It was just the possibility that. Yeah, right. And in eighty percent of cases, people would have bought anyway. Yeah, indeed. Do you have a tool to recommend for brands that are interested in the AFI Yeah, I have two in mind. For those who don't want to deal with much because there's a bit of an all-inclusive offer, you have Traid Deblr, but we're moving. We work a lot with Affilae, which is also a Bordeaux solution, by the way. Oh, OK. Yeah, they're in Bordeaux, not very far from our new offices, and we work a lot with Affilae. It's cool because there's support, but there's also the flexibility to choose your affiliation plan and therefore to choose the affiliates, to discuss with them directly, and so on. So it requires resourcefulness. That's why a lot of e-merchants don't do it or do it badly because it really takes time to do it well. On the other hand, in terms of vision, it's ultra-heroic. Okay, okay, interesting. And typically, we've talked a bit about the brands that you've started to support through these different channels. I imagine you've also had the opportunity to see brands that have really taken off, that have scaled. One of the questions I would have for you in this context is how you see, even when the brand is scaling, not doing so at the expense of the customer experience. I think this is an issue that some brands are facing at the moment. Yeah, at the moment, and even in other periods too, typically, do you consider that when you switch to kilowatts my associate, it's a scale with, it's a moment of scale. Except that, in fact, if you are not well prepared, you may lose the customer's experience because you no longer have your product in stock, because deliveries take a long time, because the after-sales service may not be responding. Generally, the brands we support are prepared for scale, so there's no issue. In any case, we don't perceive them on the customer experience. Afterwards, it's not our core business either, but of all the brands I've seen at the moment that have scale on two thousand and twenty-four, generally they are well prepared anyway. Yes, because the brands that generally they are well prepared anyway. Yeah. Because the brands that scale are brands that are focused on the product. Being focused on the product means maybe being focused on a market, so paying attention to what your customer wants, so you are listening to the customer. And if you have this philosophy, your customer service follows, your customer experience follows and normally, you have no worries. There are always exceptions, but the brands that scale, that really scale and do well, that have just a peak of growth over two months and then go back down, are brands that are focused on the customer and on the product so typically it works. Okay, and typically to come back a little to a previous stage, so in terms of the life of a brand today, it's very simple to create a site on Shopify and start creating products. Post-Covid, we have seen a lot of DDNVB, a lot of companies that have launched relatively similar, if not sometimes almost identical, products. We won't mention any names, I assure you. And so, have you noticed the strategies that brands are adopting to continue to differentiate themselves in two thousand and twenty-four? That's a very good question. I think you have several. You have brands that attack markets with products that exist elsewhere and that do not exist in France and therefore are necessarily different in that market, but not necessarily in a global market. You have brands that focus everything on the product because, in fact, you can have a product that addresses the same issue. Except that there are bound to be areas for improvement, there is bound to be a way to do better. Generally, it's the brands that last over time because if your product is good, it sells and your marketing, I don't want to say is optional, but it's incremental. And conversely, you have brands that rely heavily on the market, and that's what we saw at the time. When you had a lot of, I'm thinking of a typical market like menstrual panties, which is a market that thinks very much in terms of concentration with very similar products. What made some of them successful in the long run was marketing. They quickly gained market share, they were top of mind, they stayed in people's minds for several months. You have people, I'm thinking of a brand whose founder I don't know, but having heard the strategy, I'm thinking of Moule, for example, who had his strategy of free panties, which is ultra-intelligent from a marketing point of view. There are certainly product developments on all these brands too, but put yourself in the consumer's shoes, you look at two pairs of menstrual pants. In fact, maybe you'll tell yourself that it's the same product and that's where marketing comes in. And apart from a fast time to market, having a product that is better than the others, having a slightly different marketing, you're not reinventing the wheel. Yeah, so it's become harder all the same today. I feel like we're differentiating ourselves. So typically in this kind of market, in certain markets. Yeah, yeah, yeah, clearly. Clearly, it has become harder. You are dealing with brands that generally rely on the same acquisition strategies. So you are using the levers that you would have. Ultra competitive, so they will cost you a lot to acquire a new customer, who is increasingly expensive. And so now, it's all about your repeat business. Your repeat, it only comes through your product in reality, through the actions we take. But if your product is not good, people don't repeat. So yeah, it's complicated to differentiate yourself on certain brands, but it's not impossible. On certain markets, sorry, it's not impossible. For once, I think that anyone can have a good idea to have a differentiating axis. I'm thinking of certain brands that we work with, which are in fairly competitive markets like gummies, ocean raids, and yet we manage to grow, we manage to attract people because there is a differentiating product, because there is a slightly innovative approach. From a marketing point of view, we have seen the rise there over the last few months, years of the authentic side that was coming back with UGC, FJC, and so on. Customers are increasingly sensitive to this. You see the brands that are competitors, but that were established a little earlier, that have a slightly more traditional or slightly more old-school marketing. They are losing market share to slightly more innovative brands that are refocusing on the customer. And so we come back to the subject of the customer, the customer, what they want to see, what they want to hear, reassurance. So you can differentiate yourself from a marketing strategy point of view and from a product point of view. And if the camps are on it, it's this specific point about marketing strategy. Typically, there is, I was talking to Sébastien de Booth not long ago, who came out with a method, I believe, called Océan Vert. And if I remember correctly, it's quite interesting. It shows a kind of pyramid where you know that often those who are ready to buy will actually represent a very small sample of your market. I think it's around three percent. And in fact, often, brands will try to address these three percent directly. Whereas, by going back a little bit in terms of awareness of the problem, but also of the solutions, with a perhaps slightly more educational angle in the marketing strategy or issues that are related to what we are trying to evoke in our advertising, for example. In fact, we manage to address people who are a little ahead of the curve and continue to work on them through different campaigns and different strategies. In the end, we will succeed in converting them. Do you have any examples of strategies along these lines, or to simplify what I'm saying, do we actually go perhaps a little less to the point. Yes, of course. You have brands that have done this really well, I'm thinking in particular of the mattress market where you actually had comparison tools, you had articles on which mattress is best for sleeping and so on, which is really a matter of education and awareness, so that the person goes to the site to find out more, compare, etc., until they buy. You have lots of other brands that do it differently when you send people a lead gen to send, I don't know, an ebook on how to decorate your house for Feng Shui and where to place the lights because you are a French lighting brand like Atelier Loupiote for example. It's not a strategy that has been implemented, but it could be. You see, on this, yes, you're going to look for people who are not in a buying phase at the moment. Which is, by the way, the whole point when you do social media paid advertising because they're not intentional. You're on your phone scrolling and you're shown an ad for something where you show an interest at some point during the week, during the year, in lighting or mattresses, and then we have to convert you, and to convert you, there is education, even about brands, you see, especially about brands like food supplements, in fact it's something that you put in your body, so you have to be sure about what you're going to take. It's safe. So there is an educational issue, there is a reassurance issue with satisfied customers, generally the happy adopters who will say that it's cool and so on and that's it. In fact, so you you indeed, I don't know the percentage, maybe it's three percent, maybe it's more or less, but you have a tiny part that is pre-purchased and all the rest that needs to be worked on. Yeah, that's right. If it were the other way around, everyone would buy Sky Day One directly. That would be good. It would be much better. You would have much less interest with Yalidé. So it's not bad like that after all. Yeah, it's not bad. Still, it's better. Cool. Now, I'd like to change the subject a little. So you mentioned the cost of acquisition earlier. I think there is, it's a subject we haven't covered yet. So I'll ask you the question, when you can for yourself, can you already explain, you know the importance, what is PNL and how to follow it? How important is it to follow it when you are an e-merchant? Yeah, so PNL, if you translate it into French, it's an income statement, otherwise it's profit and loss. That's basically it, I'm simplifying it as much as possible so we don't get into financial stuff. It's the pluses and minuses that tell you where you spend money, where you earn it and in the end, is it more or is it less? Simply. We are used to working with a NFP for e-commerce brands that we rework, in any case, especially for the brands that we support in the growth marketing part, which is really the consulting part. OK. And even in real terms, even in acquisition in fact. We are used to working with a NLP because when you are a brand, you are going to make your projection with your accountant who does not know the acquisition issues, who does not know the evolutions of KPI type CPM and so on and so forth and will not even estimate your turnover by thinking about how much monthly traffic you get, what the increase will be, what the impact of your conversion rate is, whether it is increasing, stable or decreasing, and finally, what is more or less the number, the turnover that you are going to achieve. And so we are taking the reins on this to try to project a little more because we have the e-commerce vision and the skills to build it and because we also have the challenge of differentiating between return customers and new customers because a brand that lasts over time and a brand that scales is a brand that continues to acquire new customers at a certain cost which will generate a certain turnover at time t, but which will have an LTV that allows you to project the turnover you will make in the coming months and your re-tording, so the customer who repurchases and say, ok, precisely linked to this LTV, how much will this re-t-ion make me in the year and depending on the difference you have on the two lines, you know where you can play. In fact, you have to play on your acquired knowledge. This new client, do you actually have to push people to have more and because often when a brand is going to arrive, it is going to concentrate, it is going to say I want to make a hundred thousand in turnover. And if you don't distinguish between what the share of your existing customers will really be and what the share of your new customers will be, your strategy is not the same depending on the strength you have on one or the weakness you have on the other. And how you define, you choose your stratum a little. So you basically take it as ok, I'm going to make a hundred, a hundred thousand at the end of the year. In general, do you have benchmarks based on the stage of the company, or at the beginning, I imagine you're going to be more sure, I don't know, about ninety percent of the acquisition in the first few years, or it switches a bit to retention. Yeah, ninety percent is what people have in mind. What Louette Pareto and Co, but in fact, it really depends on your business. Generally, we don't support brands that have just launched because we have a premium approach and we support more growing or hyper-growing brands. It's from what threshold of it's about two million euros Two million euros. Two million euros, unless you're already growing at one and a half million and you're growing, of course. President who is going to be my partner. Yes, that's it, it actually works. Yes. It's mainly a notion of growth. Okay. And sorry, what was the question? So yeah, it was in relation to the fact that you're a bit of a, so you were saying the benchmarks, it really depends on your type of business, in fact. Basically, what we do is that we look at brands that already have a history, we look at the history and therefore we look at the composition of the turnover over the previous years, all the previous months and therefore you see where it is lacking. Do you typically not have any and therefore you have a stake in making it? Do you have a good l t v? Can it improve it? Launch of a new range, on something, better c r m strategy to push for repeat, that kind of thing. And we also have benchmarks in markets. So it's not always true because you can be the top performer or the low performer in a market and therefore the bench seems totally decorated, but it still gives you a trend and you know more or less where you need to go. And after the NLP, it is also adapted to the marketing and financial capacity and the competitive advantage of the company. Typically someone who is extremely strong in acquiring new customers. Isn't it in your best interest to continue to scale up this part rather than playing on the returning Or, conversely, to say to yourself that I am already very strong in this area. So shouldn't I try to find the incremental on my returning and therefore compose my turnover differently? There is no miracle recipe. The best thing is to really look at the company's figures, to dig a little. Us, typically, when we do it, we do an audit phase beforehand. Yeah, of course. We spend time on it. But what you have to keep in mind if an e-merchant is listening to us, and I'm sure there will be one, I hope, is that everything is better. The turnover is made up of new customers and re-learners, and there is bound to be one that is weak and one that is strong, or if both are very strong, you have to keep focusing on what works. Yeah, okay, that seems like a good, a good conclusion to that topic. And so, what also allows you, once you've launched your stratum, to detect some warning signals in the cash register, in the retention, I think. What are your warning signals that allow you to adjust your stratum to get your NLP that remains? For me, for me, it's KPI monitoring. KPI monitoring, in fact, everything that is not measured is not controllable in reality. If tomorrow you decide that in January you have to do a hundred thousand with it and your projection is x new customers y in repeat and you don't reach a hundred thousand, it means that one or the other or both didn't work, so you have to follow it and then you have to be able to identify why. Once again, there is no miracle cure. The only trick is to follow your KPIs, to ask yourself whether I have put in the necessary effort Have I actually messed up in optimizing the campaigns From a creative point of view, I saw the right creative angle Did I put enough effort into the repeat There comes a time when you also have to be able to question yourself. And you see, it's a mistake you can make when you're on hyper-growth brands and you're very sure of the duration of the hyper-growth. Exactly. And on top of that you can screw yourself up even more. I'll take the example of QVM. I'm sorry, I'm going to digress a little, but with QVM, you're not working to a standard year. You're on TV, you make a million euros. The following year you don't say I'm going to make a million in January. If you haven't taken it into account and you say no, in fact, I want to make twenty percent more, but you haven't taken that peak into account. These statistical anomalies in the end. Exactly. Well, in fact, in the end, you're going to end up with a bag that's not at all in your target. And the problem won't be in optimization or implementation, it will be in estimation. What you did at the beginning. That's why the audit at the beginning is extremely important. And so to know if you're going in the right direction or not, as with any company, it's a question of following the KPIs to say am I within my targets Yes No Why be able to identify why And to get back to where I wanted to go, if you've put in all the effort, if your respite is buzzing well, if in fact you follow the stratum and it doesn't work, there may be a case for reworking the estimate because there are certain markets where it takes time before they crack. Yeah, yeah, okay, so yeah, you really start from the data over a normative year, as you say, or potentially we are looking at statistics that are accurate in relation to what may happen in the future and based on that and a sector benchmark you are going to define where you need to arrive and how you need to get there in terms of acquired repair or retention or limit. Exactly, exactly, and one mistake often made by e-merchants is to compare themselves to others without knowing the competitive advantage of the other because visually it's the same brand, it's the same brand, it's the same product It was his huge margin. And in fact maybe that's it indeed the margins are maybe not the same. You don't know the history of the founder it turns out he has a huge social media presence and his turnover is made by well by retail and you get the impression that that it's the e-commerce when in fact the e-commerce is just financed by retail you see so there are there are many things that that you can't see that you don't see and so you have to focus on you your economic construction and your economic equation and how can you make it as viable as possible. Okay, these topics are interesting and to continue the ping-pong between acquisition on the one hand and retention on the other, how exactly in the analysis, well I think something that few people in any case manage to visualize concretely, is how you actually communicate your acquisition cost with your life time value. Since you are active on both subjects with Benevic, I would be very interested to know a little bit how it is, it's a bit of a broad question, not very precise about the subject, but how you see that you can perhaps increase the TLV, and thus allow you to have a higher CAC. What are the communication strategies between your CAC and your LTV? And how do you help each other on a daily basis with regard to these issues? Absolutely. So we're lucky enough to have Ben&Vick and Certifive, so Ben&Vick provides a lot of support on the acquired part and Certifive on the retention part, so the teams communicate and implement strategies together. In fact, one goes with the other because the higher your nuclear CAC, the more it is in your interest to have a high LTV because otherwise you won't earn much money or any money at all. A quick question on this: do you have an ideal LTV/CAC ratio? Yeah, the average is three. Three, that's right. Like on the site, the ideal is three. Okay. Where it's three. Okay. But in fact you can degrade or improve it depending on the stage of life of your company. Because typically, if you are looking for growth and you are able to finance yourself, why be at three if you can go and acquire new customers who will finance the following year. You see, and who in fact have the same stake as in an airlock. Exactly. So once again, it all depends on your entrepreneurial profile, your risk aversion, your vision of your project, are you looking to achieve one hundred percent growth or thirty percent because in fact if you are conservative maybe you have no interest in going too far to challenge your C.A.C. new client but rather to work on your L.T.V. rather than investing more in the market or conversely to challenge your C.A.C. new client but keeping similar budgets to improve your ratio. Yeah, okay. So both are indeed both are extremely important. There's the four new customer part, which we manage very well with all the acquisition levers and even the related levers where you have affiliation and retention, it can be managed in several ways. So you have the c r m part, you're going to have Whatsapp, you're going to have s m s. I'm thinking of WhatsApp and Wax, which are in your offices, or you in theirs, I don't know. And so all of that allows you to work on the LTV and we don't forget the PAID because in fact, to go on a basis to do CRM as I was saying earlier, you can go through PAID to push the recovery of phone numbers for an OP in the same way. You can go through acquired, so the acquired and the CRM, and finally retention in general, are linked. Now, how you optimize one or the other depends, as I was saying, on the ratio you want to use to find them. Are you going to grow, and in that case you increase your market budgets, you degrade your and you bet on the fact that your will last over time. Or, conversely, do you want to optimize your life? In that case, you can also do repeat business in social pay by uploading your database and pushing new products, releasing a new range and trying to upsell your existing customers as much as possible, and therefore with the retention part as well. Too good. This is a subject that I find extremely, extremely interesting. We could talk about it for a long time because it is extremely specific and at the same time extremely broad because, specifically, we could get into topics of pure leverage and/or pure retention. And then, there would have to be a lot with me because it's more of a profession and at the same time it's extremely broad because if you haven't yet realized that there are new customers and repeat customers and that your turnover structure is linked to that and that you have to play on one or the other or both depending on your stage of life, you can hit a wall. And besides, in the beginning, when e-merchants get started, these concepts don't exist. The people who do e-commerce are passionate about the product or the marketing, one or the other. They're going to make a killer product or a killer market or both. And the part of structuring turnover comes much later when they reach a ceiling because they have somewhat exhausted these leaders or innovators who bought the product from the start. Once they have the product market fit, that's when they start to ask themselves questions about what comes next. Exactly, it's cool. Well, listen, maybe that will be the topic of the next episode with Avec Madère. We're going to do a crossover episode. Too good. And so there, it was interesting, I really find this PNL strategic aspect, how you manage your CAC, such as TV, and so on. And a little bit related to that, still, there is, as I was saying in the intro, more and more, in any case, it's a topic that's certainly topical, brands that are launching, so that were rather digital native and are launching into retail to have an omnichannel approach. What does good omnichannel management mean to you? When is the right time to get started? It's a bit like the signals that will tell me, okay, I need to go omnichannel. Does everyone have to go omnichannel? Once you do it, is there a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it? The wrong way to do it, I think, is to go headlong into all the channels at once. For me, the right time to launch an omnichannel approach is when your main channel is starting to run out of steam, but can finance the new channel. So in fact there are two prisms. I think that when the main channel is running out of steam, that's the time to try and finance another one. But it may even be a bit late because it's when everything is going well that it's also the time to test things without putting yourself at risk. So it will depend on which channel you're talking about. If we're talking about another acquisition channel like TikTok or Snapchat, channels that are a bit secondary to Meta or Google. I think it's when you've achieved an interesting way of working, that you're raising causes that are, well, that your causes are good, that you've put in for those who. Normally, everyone knows those who listen to the podcast. Cost of sales, yeah, it's the market ratio on your turnover. Basically, it's your ability to finance your turnover with your investments. Very clear, I'm sorry about the digression. No, no, don't worry. I should have said the acronym myself. So, in fact, when you've mastered that, you can move on to other channels. Conversely, opening a shop is another channel, well, it's another channel of go. Yeah. I have a little less expertise on this so I don't want to say anything stupid but in my opinion all brands, more or less all brands can do it. Now, there's a big timing game because because a business is expensive, it also requires human resources, you need someone in a shop, it requires more lines to communicate on it. So I don't have a, I don't think I'm going to have a precise answer on that. But in any case, what is certain is when, not when everything is going badly at the moment. Yes, I think that would be the wrong one. The right idea works there. No, on the other hand, the most frequent mistake is wanting to do everything thoroughly. Yeah. The most common mistake is to say you do meta, you do Google, you do Tik Tok and I opened a pop up and I did it, you're on all fronts and that's in any business, not just commerce. You sleep on the same subjects, I have the same subjects. When you want to launch lots of things at once, you look back six months later, it didn't work or you have a one in ten chance of it working and you ask yourself why it didn't work. Just because you didn't focus, you scattered all your efforts instead of putting them where it worked. And it's Alexandre Ramossy who says the rule is, put your effort where it counts, and I totally agree with that. Because when it works, you have to push it to the limit. So I have to capitalize on it to the max until I say okay, now I need to or I take the risk of diversifying. Yeah, that's for sure. Diversifying too early, I think that's what killed many, many, many It's a sure thing in my opinion. It's a sure thing, because even from one point of view, so I'm talking about what I know, you still have a notion of learning, whether it's algorithmic learning or human learning. The algorithm needs time and you need time to grasp the creative strategy that works, the wording that works, the targeting that works, which is a little less true now. But in any case, the whole creative part is learning. It's all about learning and iteration and it takes time. So if you're burning budgets all over the place and you can find the thing that works. You haven't found the thing that works exactly. And on top of that, the creative strategy you have on Meta is not the same on TikTok, it's not the same on Snap. That means you have to iterate, iterate on each one. So it costs you money every time. You need time to produce, analyze, and relaunch campaigns. So that's where you, that's where you get burned. Yeah, and on top of that, you don't know where it's coming from, even if you're growing. Right. Which channel, which channel is it really coming from? Is it? That's where the COCE is interesting. It's that if you're in the Target of COCE, well overall, you know it works. Afterwards, there is no, in fact, you cannot identify your Low Performer or your top Performer, unless you are cutting and you look at the evolution of the and you say ok, I cut such and such a lever because I'm not sure how to attribute it. In that case, my cos, it increases or it decreases in that case and with the same marketing budget. And in that case, you say ok, it was a good lever. Ok super cool and now for a little touch on the future, let's hear your Christelle Victor scoop. You talked a bit about WhatsApp, so there it really had the trends, you know, a bit of news. That would be one of my, my first question. And after the second question about the future, it would really be about how you see e-commerce evolving in the next few years. We'll start with now, before pulling out the crystal ball. Now, there are solutions that are emerging every day and top solutions like WhatsApp, which is opening up a new channel, in fact, which allows you to work on retention and which is pretty cool. There are reassurance solutions, I'm thinking of Joy Story, which for me are essential because there is a risk when you go to a site, you put in your credit card, there is still a question of whether What the gummies, what I'm going to eat are really Do I really want to put my card on this site because the product is good or is it that when I receive my package, the product is an advertisement and the stories allow you to ration it. So currently in the French ecosystem, there are lots of things that are, including you. So there is an understanding in the market that you have to work on your customers, you have to use Joy, Whatsapp, Yoli solutions. So for me, there is a moment in time with a return to huge retention for once. Whereas, as I said at the beginning, we were in a heyday of I'll make an acquisition, I'll make an acquisition, I'll make an acquisition, but after a while, it runs out of steam and starts to die. And I think that for the future there are a lot of issues at stake. You have something that's exploding, which is branded apps. Yeah. Branded apps, in fact, you have an app on your phone and you are ultra-loyal. Zara does it, for example, and you go and order directly on it, which requires a huge product-customer link for people to use the app, and we are sending little by little that is starting to arrive in France with solutions such as Tapcard. Tapcard is a Macapi, a single Macapi. Exactly, that's right, I'd forgotten the name. So there are these kinds of channels that are going to arrive. Yes. That are going to arrive. Yes, I also think it's an incredible retention lever over a push notification versus an SMS. And in terms of cost already, it's huge. It's huge. It's huge. It's huge. You pay less because you don't pay for the notification as well. You just pay for the maintenance of your map. There is, for me, a return to authenticity that will continue in the years to come. Ultra-community brands, because in fact people want to have a connection, and in any case in another market, I'm talking about a really French, Latin market, where there is this need for connections, and the brands that outperform that I know have a huge connection with their community, and that's going to continue, so either with emerging solutions to maintain the community. You typically have Instagram groups for influencers or you have the influencer channel, the same for brands. I might be saying something stupid for brands, I'll have to think about it, but in any case, keeping this link with the brand or again, four or five years ago, we were putting ads. You had It worked very well. On Insta and it worked anyway. You see So I think there are solutions that will come along to keep the link. Some time ago, we were talking about the metaverse, advertising in the metaverse, and so on. I believe in that less, much less. People are after Covid, happy to get back to basics as you said, to the real thing. Exactly. I'm less convinced now, but maybe Damien will prove me wrong. We're going to have a Covid-like situation soon. I hope not. But on the other hand, the thing I do believe in is AI and therefore solutions that will help you better manage your customer relations, solutions that will help you come up with ideas for engaging with your communities and so on. I think a lot of things will develop in this area. And from an advertising perspective, advertising will develop on reading, fashion, people are now doing their research on Chat GPT, Cloud Sone, and so on. And TikTok indeed, you're right, but to stay on the volleyball, ok, how, what's going to happen from an advertising point of view? Are you going to be able to make a sponsored request? In fact, when the person gets such a prompt, will we still be able to appear as a sponsor? Perplexity has announced that they are going to put in advertising. So it's a new topic for brands. Yes. That too, if you can't put in advertising, it's a s e o topic. How do you get the AI to bring you up as a top search based on prompts that may have an extremely important stake for a brand and apart from the AI, as you said, indeed social media where you start going on the TikTok search, I know a lot of people who go on TikTok to look for the best restaurant in Bordeaux, you know? Yeah. And indeed, in terms of branding and strategy, how are you going to continue, are you going to start or continue to implement this kind of leverage because the brand that has understood now, or typically the restaurant chain that has understood now, we have lost the neon, excuse me for asking. The restaurant chain that has now realized that it is doing TikTok, it is ranking first on the Bordeaux restaurant query by doing lots of TikTok around that topic, it is going to drive traffic and turnover, that's for sure. And in the years to come, it's going to be more and more important. Very interesting. Yes, Lydia too, as you say, I'm pretty much convinced about the really personalization part of the customer experience. Absolutely. Always offering an even better experience that's more personalized, more intelligent, more relevant. So that's it, that's cool. And everyone wants a personalized experience. Let's say you're going to a restaurant tomorrow, I'm taking something very down to earth. You want your service to be personalized. Yeah. And in fact on a site, you win if that's the case. If indeed, you say to yourself that's it's me, in fact, it's ultra-adapted. This product, it's for me, the worlding, it's for me. There's no subject. Your conversion rate is much higher. Yeah, for sure, too cool. Well listen, it was really, really cool the topics that we discussed. Thanks for the invitation. It was too cool, it was too cool. We'll have the opportunity to do another episode, I hope. With Max. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Loyoly talks right to the end. I hope you enjoyed it and found lots of tips to try out for your brand. If so, subscribe so you don't miss the next one. Spread the word and leave us a five-star rating on Apple podcast, it helps us a lot. Finally, if you need to increase your level of activity, don't hesitate to contact me on LinkedIn or on our website, Loyoly dot I o. See you soon.