Web Stories: better conversion and optimizing the bottom of your funnel (with Jonathan de JOIN)

When you're on my site, do you put a pack shot, a product, a discount and put a drop down saying delivery, this, return, this, ingredients, that's it. Do we really think it's a good experience in two thousand and twenty-four The answer is, I'm categorical, it's, it's no. The answer is no. Hello, you're listening to Loyoly Talks, the podcast that's all about e-commerce. Once a month, I host an inspirational figure from the French e-commerce ecosystem for a friendly, unpretentious discussion on the subjects they're passionate about. The aim is to decipher e-commerce trends and share practical tips for making your e-shop a success. I'm Joseph Aubry, co-founder of Loyoly, the loyalty and sponsorship platform that lets you engage your customers through over fifty different mechanisms. Sharing, user content, customer reviews and much more to increase your LTV and decrease your CAC. If you like loyoly talks, subscribe and feel free to leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to support us. Good listening. Nice to join you on this podcast. Absolutely. I was doing an episode I think. We're going to talk web stories, no surprise there. Look, that's what we're here for. But it's gonna be really cool. You know the principle. The aim is to give brands a few tips that can be activated. And also to introduce you to the Join solution, which is really top-notch. With pleasure. So, maybe we can start with a little presentation if that's okay with you. With great pleasure. Listen, I'm Jonathan, one of the two co-founders of Joint. Joint is a solution we launched four years ago with a vision, if you like, that's been the same since day one. It's to offer brands a solution that will enable them to reproduce the experience of social networks, but on their own site, to remove all disincentives to purchase. And that's exactly what we're doing, as you mentioned, thanks to web stories, a format inspired by social media, the stories we know, but which we're going to bring back to our sites and mobile apps. And this translates into a SaaS software application on which you can create, broadcast and then, of course, analyze all the results. But too good. So what are the different web story formats? What works best? You've got lots of advice on that. Yeah, in fact, to give you a bit of a context, we already have about two hundred customers around the world. E-com actually has about fifteen brands in the L'Oréal group, Vichy, La Roche Posay, Garnier and so on. But we also have many DN ZB, D2C, La belle boucle, les secrets de l'Olly, NV galerie and many other brands. And indeed, our advice to brands, whatever their size, is to humanize their approach, to humanize their site, and so of course we encourage them to create stories that put the human at the center. So these can obviously be very UGC stories. I think we'll talk more about that later, but it can also be about unboxing. They can also show product details. And in fact, I'd say that what brings all these web stories together, the number one piece of advice I can give, is for brands to ask themselves what are their buying disincentives. What are their consumers' buying disincentives? And finally, when we write this down on a piece of paper, when we get the different teams around a table, in fact we know what the buying disincentives are, and then we can respond to them with a web story format. You know as well as I do that today's traffic is increasingly mobile on the phone. In fact, brands today have a minimum of at least seventy percent mobile traffic, but people don't read text anymore. So you can remove the disincentive to buy with text, but nobody reads it anymore. People today, we're all watching video, but whether you're sixty and on Facebook or sixteen and on TikTok, in the end you're consuming short vertical video, and that's the problem. Ok too good. So you talked a bit about the UGC you can put in web stories. Are there any other formats you recommend? For those who don't know the term, UGC stands for user-generated content. In concrete terms, it's end-user videos, created by users who will, as you said, humanize the buying experience. And then, as you were also saying, to make ourselves felt with an experience on social networks. So I imagine we'll also be able to be more active on the site, stay a little longer, consume the content. So there's UGC on the one hand, but are there other types of content that you can add, perhaps created by the brands themselves? I don't know, let's take a cosmetics brand, for example. We come across a product sheet for a cosmetics brand. So we can show you the ingredients of the product, but once again, it has to be embodied. It could be a content creator, someone from the community or even someone who works for the brand. At the same time, we'll show influential content as well. It's all about embodying the brand, projecting the consumer. We'll show a routine, for example, and say, “Okay, now I'm buying a day cream, but what else could I buy to complement it? And then to continue along the path of removing disincentives to purchase, we can explain the return policy, the delivery policy. You can also use customer reviews. Once again, the idea is not to replace customer reviews with text and stars. In any case, we need them because we read them today. Our brains are used to that, and we complement it. In fact, people today, once again, read a lot less. So if we can get customer reviews in video format, that's great. Even more so if you have customer reviews with the product in your hands. I often advise brands to go to Amazon, go to Amazon, go to any Amazon product, look at the customer reviews and look at the customer reviews where there's just text and underneath there are photos. In fact, you look at the photos and the text complements the image, and it's perfect. And that's what we try to bring to the story. So good. So that's more for product sheets. Yes, on the home page, it also works extremely well because in fact, we'll create redirection crossroads by saying, in fact, when we arrive on the home page, I'm going to bring my consumers in through the content door to go directly to the collections or product pages. So we can present a collab, we can present a product, we can present a look, we can present a routine. You see, you can present all these products. You have to be very product-oriented. You see, the idea isn't to do very inspiring, very institutional content, because when you're on a site, you're no longer in discovery product mode like you might be on social. We've moved into the funnel. We're still either thinking about buying, or buying outright. And so our content, if you like, has to have a very strong relationship with the product, but with a humanizing side. And Joy's strength is that on our web stories, I advise people to go to the Yay site, which is a jewelry brand, or I think of Archi or Sundress, which are customer brands that put stories in beige so that people can see them. And in fact, when you open the content, we add buttons that pin the product, if you like. In fact, when you're interested, you can click directly and switch to the product sheet. And you can even do something else to directly increase your metrics. And on join, we have the ability to add an add to cart directly to the story. We'll take the example once again of a make-up routine. If you're on a heel page, presenting a routine and in fact scrolling through the different product tags in the same video, if someone is interested in the routine, they can directly add their routine to the shopping cart, which prevents them from thinking, “I'm going on a PDP one, a PDPDP one, a PDP three”. It's a way of increasing this metric, which we know is key for all e-tailers. That's right, and speaking of metrics, it's the metrics you're going to track. So you've talked about the rate of engagement, the time the user spends on the content, playing the cart, what are the other metrics you're going to take into account? There are two categories of metrics. You have business metrics. These are the main ones, obviously, that we track with our merchants. First of all, of course, we ask ourselves whether adding short content to my site will, in theory, remove the disincentives to purchase. And then, of course, we look at whether there's an uptick in the to cart. That's the main metric, because if your web story is in PDP, you'll have an impact. Sorry about PDP, I say PDP in English, it means product page. Okay, but it's product page. I don't like to say pee right now because brands, especially L'Oréal brands, tell us a lot so it's quicker. Yes, so product sheet. And so, with web stories, we're going to have a direct impact on to cards, so that's what we're looking at. Then, of course, there's the question of whether we've got an up book on the conversion rate. Of course, the conversion rate, it's really important for brands to bear in mind that a conversion rate obviously depends on a lot of things. If you've increased your at to cards thanks to web story, but then your shopping cart, for example, you're obliged to create an account. If the person then takes off their shoes to proceed with the purchase. Of course, there are many other factors involved. And if that card doesn't go through, et cetera, et cetera. Quite the flock of cart abandonment posters. But of course, too. Of course, but even so, we have benchmarks that can increase conversion rates by up to eight percent. In fact, some brands like Bocu, for example, can increase conversion rates by up to twelve percent. Yeah, it's Uj. So it's Uj, but you have to take that with a grain of salt for some brands. So in any case, conversion rate. And then behind that, there are slightly more subtle metrics that we look at, because in fact they have a direct impact on the brands' business, and that's two things: the number of product returns. Basically, when you put web stories on a product sheet, you're going to describe your product better. It's easier to see and understand. So when people buy, they're more aware of what they're going to get. In the same way, if you put up an unboxing story, you're projecting the person into the next step after purchase, but you can also help them understand what they're going to have in their hands, even in terms of packaging, parcels and so on. So you're going to reduce the return rate, and once again, all merchants will tell you so. The return rate is very important. It has a direct impact on damage. Product returns, there's no question about it, you've got to deal with it, you've got to manage it, it's stock, well, it's a real pain. So the rate of product returns is falling, and there's also the number of support tickets. At first, we at Junk didn't realize this. But you have to realize that when you expose visual, video, mobile-first answers to your prospects on your site, you're going to relieve your customer service. And who responds to customer service? Of course, with AI, a lot of things are falling into place. Nonetheless, there's still something behind it. So these are the more subtle metrics we're tracking. We're going to say, okay, what's the click rate on our stories? So, depending on the position, we're going to say, is it clicking well? are people interested in clicking on the content? then, we're going to look at the completion rate, up to the point where people go to a story. This determines whether or not a piece of content is interesting. That way, we can delete it if it's really not working, or capitalize on it and create other things for other product sheets if it's working. And the engagement rate by us, in our stories, we can put quizzes, polls, forms. So it's not so much on a product sheet that it's interesting to do that because we're in the buying process. So you don't want to ask people to fill in questionnaires. But for example, on an unboxing with a little booklet, a QR code, you scan and you can ask your customers questions. In this case, the engagement rate, if you like, is very important and is generated by the click rate. The click rate, that's what I was telling you earlier, if we add you see buttons in our stories to redirect to a collection page for example, we'll look at all that. So business metrics, content metrics. Right, okay. And you were talking about the QR code in the order. Is this also one of the uses of web stories, where once the user has already placed an order, you can give them a little tutorial, or something like that, to enable them to use the product in a much smoother way than just reading the instructions? And that's exactly it. It's a bit dull. In fact, I'll use Boku's example, which is very concrete. Yeah, yeah, it's a product that requires pedagogy. You have to mount your Boku in your toilet, so it's not as easy as that for everyone, those who aren't very handy even if it's simple on paper, you have to imagine. I have two left hands, so I have a hard time assembling furniture. So in fact I know that the old notissica, it's very dull you see, I'm more inclined to like video. So what do a lot of people do when they order their product and receive it, and they get a little booklet with a QR code on it, and they flash it and then they see a web story that comes up on Safari or Chrome, on their phone or on their Internet browser, and they see William explaining to them how to assemble it on video. So you just have to put yourself in the situation, you're at home in your bathroom, you've got your phone and all you have to do is watch. And another example, from a different industry, Blissim. Blissim, what are they doing with us? They've completely reduced, if you like, their paper usage, at the request of their community, because in fact, in each box, you had all the products described, and so on. They thought, well, it's a real request from our community, and it saves us money. So they just send a little card like a wedding card. You flash a QR code, and you're taken to a landing page with product descriptions and people talking to you, explaining what's in the box. And that's where you get the best of both worlds. Firstly, it's digital, so there's no paper. Two, it's humanized, you've got someone to talk to, and three, in terms of business, you can do cross-selling, because when you come across a video, you can say in this box, there was this, this, this, bye de ways, it's samples. If you want to buy the product in bulk, know that you have a discount for example. Yeah, stop. You see, it's this link between the digital and the physical world, especially at a time when, in fact, unboxing is something brands don't realize. It's a key moment on which the brand has no impact. Well, it does have an impact, because it knows what it's sending, and it's up to the brand to make a beautiful package, a beautiful product and so on. But you don't have anyone from the brand talking to you. You see who could say, for example, Joseph this is your first order, thank you so much for ordering from us. It's really cool for such and such a reason. Finally, you can imagine the bond you can create with your community. In terms of customer experience, it's really changing. So in fact, from the act of buying right through to use, you can really implement web stories absolutely everywhere. Exactly. For these, for these, from base to z. So that's it, that's really cool. You mentioned the add to cart button earlier. Yes. Is that what we call Apple Video Shops? Okay, that's exactly it. In fact, it's the fact of saying, I've got a video that's choppable. I have a video on which I can directly add metrics, or buttons that allow me to increase my business metrics, and that's what it's all about. I still don't believe in the ability to buy in a story. If you want to buy in a story, you'd have to put in your credit card details and so on. Maybe that's the next step. But nonetheless, the fact that you're able to tote a card is great because someone who's interested in a boom product adds it to the shopping cart. And as a brand, that's powerful. And what would be the ultimate web story or the ultimate video for you? If you were to do, let's take an example from an industry like cosmetics, where I know it's a lot of advertising, because of course you're going to need reassurance, need someone to explain to you, as you say, the ingredients and so on. What would be the perfect web story for you? There's content and form. In terms of form, the content is already vertical. To fit the phone, it's better. It's a story that, it's a web story that's going to last between, you know, fifteen and thirty seconds max. Yes, I'm not saying that longer videos aren't interesting, but I am saying that, in fact, we're in a buying moment and we need to get straight to the point. I'm saying that it's a story that needs to be chopped up, so chapterized. On John, we have a feature called Eye Chapter that allows you to integrate a video. You upload a video to JYN and it will automatically cut it out for you, but according to what's happening in the video, what the person is saying. You don't have to cut it out every ten seconds, it's cut out intelligently. And the last point, which is very, very important, is subtitles. Eighty percent of videos are viewed with sound on the Internet today. So in fact, when you don't use subtitles, you're potentially depriving yourself of eighty percent of your traffic, which wouldn't ultimately understand the video one hundred percent. Likewise on Jain, there's a feature called AI Chapter that automatically subtitles your video with different u I. So there you have it: a fifteen to thirty second chapterized vertical video with subtitles. It's a bit like what I was saying at the beginning, it has to be humanized, it has to be embodied. It can be embodied by content creators, it can be embodied by your community, it can be embodied by someone within your brand. I'm thinking, for example, of Yad, a lingerie brand that we love at Jane elles, a company founded by Deborah El Baz, who is a truly extraordinary entrepreneur. And I'm talking about her because they asked themselves the question, saying we have a real problem explaining our size. They have a problem explaining their size. And rather than putting out a classic size guide, saying “If you're a size thirty-four with us, that's equivalent to something. They've done a story filmed with their iPhone on a tripod, with a small light that's really sober, but above all very authentic, and that's what works. And what was in the background? There was Claire, who works at IAD, who was posed, who was in the shot, in the field and she was showing a model who was, who was wearing the bodysuit and she was explaining things. And I thought that was great. As a consumer, that's what we want. It's like being in a boutique. You see, it's as if you were in a store and you had a sales advisor explaining to you, in fact, here you are in relation to your morphology, that's how I see it too. In fact, that's how she explained the size guide. So when it comes to positioning, you can imagine that there's a certain positioning that means that other brands, I don't know, ultra luxury ultra premium, wouldn't allow themselves to do that. But that's one way of doing it. So to come back to your question, it's basically about humanizing things, embodying them, making them authentic. I'm always advising brands to make vertical videos, iPhone videos, excuse me, because that's the format we want to see today. But of course, the quality is just as good. The proof is that we're filming with the iPhone itself, so normally it should be. People are shocked. The extraordinary quality we're delivering. But yes, yes, basically, that's it, it's in the background and in the form. That's how you have to approach the subject, and I come back to what I said at the start. You have to ask yourself what are the disincentives to buying and then respond to them. And then there's a direct impact on the metrics. Ok, that's very interesting, and you were just talking about authenticity, which brings to mind the question of subjects. As for you, I have two questions. The first, to go back a little before talking about UGC, is a question I was asking myself: does Jane offer videos that are a little interactive? For example, you're in the story and then depending on where you click on what the person is saying, you can go to another, you see, that leads to another, another video. I was wondering if this is something you have in mind for the future, maybe. So we don't do it right away, because you really have to understand that we're a techno, we're the container, we're not really the content. We're trying to make it as easy as possible for brands to aggregate their content, and we're going to help with the creative side of things: you see, we've got a hundred and fifty templates on our tool. Customer templates, UGC templates, influencer templates, delivery templates and so on, to help you format your video. On the other hand, where we're going to help with UGC, for example, is that we've asked ourselves what's so time-consuming as a brand, and what are the structuring problems for an e-commerce brand when it comes to UGC. Well, there are two of them. Firstly, getting hold of UGC is a real pain. Why? Because they're posted on TikTok, they're posted on Insta. Sometimes you have stories posted on Sundays. As a brand, how do you manage to get your content back? And the second structuring problem is that when you take brands that are going to exceed, you know, three or four million euros in sales, you start to have several social media teams, com teams, and each of these teams has different issues, and doesn't always communicate in the best way. So there's a problem, because the social media team is killing itself making incredible content. In the end, this incredible content is blocked in the networks. They think, “Why should I have access to your content? So you've got to do what, you've got to send or transfer, but there's no way of integrating it into your site. So you see, it's this communication problem. And since we've solved the problem at Joy, we've developed a feature simply called UGC where a brand can connect its Instagram account live. Take with and new, for example. Every day, with and new has thousands of people posting stories, reels and photos tagging the brand. So it's complicated for them to manage all that flow on Jane. They'll connect their We the New account and see their community's live story post reels. So benefit number one, you can store this content, you don't lose it. The second advantage is that you don't have the rights at start-up, so you can request them from John. There are automated mails that go out on insta saying hello we love your content, we'd like to put it back on our site. And people just have to say in DM yes no. You give a little code of a few sites. Some brands don't give anything, because you have to understand that the people in their community are already so happy that they want to appear on the site. But if not, you can push with a little promo code and do just that. And then once you've got the go or the no go, but in any case you've got a response, when you get a response at least, you're notified and you can reuse the content with one click afterwards. That's just great. And that already solves both problems. The social teams and the ecom teams have a bridge between them, and secondly, it solves the problem of storing and using content. Knowing that when it's integrated into a web story, what you really need to bear in mind is that adding video content to a site slows down the basic site. Adding video content to a site slows down your site, and we all know that site speed is directly linked to business performance. So at John's, you really have to bear in mind that it was our day 1 problem that we tackled, and we have the lightest script on the market. For the record, our script is about thirteen chaos, which isn't even the weight of an image. But because the script is so light, it doesn't slow down the product sheet, so you can integrate what you've been saying about the content, especially about sound, on your sheet. And so it's really interesting and too practical to be able to collect content and display it in a way that's totally easy for all the teams. And would you have any tips to help brands encourage content creation? Are these questions she's asking you? I think that saying to yourself as a brand, I'm going to create UGC or influencer content, that's the basics. You absolutely have to do it, there's no question about it, brands that don't do it are, for me, quite problematic. Then there's the question of how to do it. It's true that a lot of people ask themselves the same question, and a lot of them say, yeah, I'm afraid that it's not qualitative enough, that it's not framed enough, and so on. There are solutions that exist to provide a bit of a framework for this content creation, but of course, yours helps a lot too. Yesterday, I had a discussion on this subject with the Monsieur Moustache brand, which said, “Okay, but we've actually launched a collection with premium items. In fact, we don't want just anyone to be able to post on it. And what did they do? In fact, they really did a handpicked selection. They chose, they selected the right influencers. So, yes, it's a human effort that takes time, but it's so beneficial for the brand to say, okay, I'm going to choose this content creator for this product. And in fact, that's how it works. And then there are other brands. I'm thinking, for example, of a very good friend of mine, Alessandro Lusardi, who manages all the acquisitions for Respire, IG and embryolis. Every month, we send thousands, I'm talking thousands, thousands of samples to content creators, because if we really want to get into consumer scripts, we want to reach the masses. So it's a completely different approach. There's the mass on one side, and the very prickly side of a moustache man on the other, and then you have to navigate between the two. And if brands are wondering how to do this, they can contact me with pleasure to tell them in which prism they should place themselves, well, in which part of the prism they should place themselves. In any case, the world we live in today, the world of social networks that exist today, allows you to do both. And mass selling also requires a certain budget. So not every brand can afford to send out thousands of samples every month. Yes, there's typically a fairly simple solution, so sorry for being a bit of a UN ad. Typically, it's true that it's, they actually paint as you say to really create topics actually for for brands. You're going to go through influencers, but effectively that can require either an influence budget which is relatively substantial and or having to send samples to quite a few people. From an operational point of view, it can be a bit cumbersome at times. Yes. And it's true that Loyoly actually allows the user, your customer, to already have the product. You don't have to send them a sample. He's someone who loves your brand because he bought from you. In fact, why not offer them the opportunity, via the loyalty program, to create a story, a reel, a post, to send you photos. And then I can't wait for the potential integration of a solution to go and pick from the GC's library. That's exactly it. Directly to implement on John behind. It sounds like a pretty obvious integration. Because we say we'll do the container, you do the container, you enable the content and there's a natural point between one or two structures. I find it interesting that tools like yours, like mine, like Just, we bring to e-tailers, we try to raise a problem at a very precise point in the funnel. That's what I find so interesting. I think that e-commerce brands, when they reach a certain level of sales, start asking themselves what kind of tool they should use, and I think that what they need to do is look at their funnel from a to z and say to themselves, “At what point do I really have a drop, here's how I spend it, at what point is it really painful for me? And then, based on that, select the right solutions. It's this question that we have to answer, obviously we can't take all the tools. Otherwise they have a, they have an annual cost which is enormous, even if you can see it as an investment, it's an investment when it's heroic, but they can't afford to take everything. So I think the right approach is to ask ourselves where we, as a brand, have real problems, and then there are always solutions on the market to answer most of the time. It's true that what we were saying last time was that, for years now, there's been a lot of spending on acquisition, and what we're seeing is that, as you say, when you go further down the funnel, there's really a lot of money being left on the table, at the conversion level, by embellishing the journey with reviews, social proof, etc. Yes, of course. And even from Instagram directly having followers who grow in engagement that really creates trust, web stories, optimized check out with Just and then building customer loyalty, why not reward them for all the reasons we've just mentioned, to really work on this end of the funnel, and typically two thousand twenty-four, two thousand twenty-five is really the bottom of the funnel, the bottom of the funnel, the logic that brands are currently adopting, given the costs involved. In fact, I think that what has happened is that, as you said, acquisition budgets have exploded, even the number of acquisition agencies today, well, the competition is insane. But in the end, why? Because, when you take on an e-commerce manager, a CM0 or a c o or even a CR0, whoever is going to manage revenue during the acquisition phase, it's easy, well, it's easy. Today, it's easy to say that if I invest a hundred, I'll get back two hundred. So in fact, when you're doing an NLP, it's pretty easy. You put one euro into the machine and I get so many back. So it's easy to come in and say to the big boss of the company, well look, this year we've got to put in so much, we're going to get back so much, it's pretty easy. On the other hand, thinking about how I'm going to optimize everything else is a bit of a letdown. Because in fact, there's too much of a tendency to believe that if I get a hundred people to visit my site, I'll convert a hundred. Not at all. In fact, today, what's the metaphor we can use? It's to say that acquisition is a red carpet, you bring people to these Cannes festivals to bring them to you, they open the doors to your home and so your site opens and it's a total mess. So now you have to tidy up your room, because when people arrive at your place, they have to have the same red-carpet impression. So it's actually, as you said, how I add social proof to my site, how I add UGC, how I make my shopping cart, well, my checkout, extremely simple and efficient, and afterwards, for those who have bought, it's obviously much cheaper to retain a customer than to acquire a new one. So how do I reward them? It's really time for brands to start thinking about this. There are plenty of acquisition agencies doing the job, and there are some excellent ones on the market. And I, for one, know the business well. But we work with dozens of agencies with whom we work hand in hand. Benelvic, brain labs, data shakes, I can name them all. These people are excellent. So for me, it's not an issue. Brands can staff themselves as they see fit. Today, the subject is different. Today, the issue is to say, okay, conversion and loyalty, what do I do? Like, concretely, what do I do? When you're on my site, do you actually put a pack shot, a product, a discount and put a drop on delivery? Do we really think it's a good experience in two-thousand and twenty-four The answer is I'm categorical about helping you, it's no. The answer is no. So it's really a question of what can be added to create a differentiating experience that once again removes the disincentives to purchase. And today, one of the things we're seeing at John is that we've gone from an educational market, where we had to educate brands on why social proof is important in video at this precise point on your site, to a competitive market. So we have competitors arriving every month. But beyond this competitive aspect, brands today all look at each other and actually understand. As a consumer, when I go on a website and buy a dress, it's not enough to have three backshots. So it's actually me who's the subject, it's that I go back on Instagram to look at the dresses and all of a sudden, it's I'm out of my site, it's over. I want to be on the site, to see the dress in motion, different morphologies. How I can send the dress back if it doesn't fit. In fact, that's what works today. That's what works today. Another thing to keep in mind is that ROI is good. As you were saying, it's a lot easier to defend internally for a CM0 who says to his vote, listen John, I'm putting five euros into the machine, one euro into the machine, he'll get me out. It's an easy calculation to make. But actually, making your customers happy, facilitating their customer experience, getting them to recommend you, to buy from you, that really creates social proof. That's a more complicated exercise. And since we're at the bottom of the funnel, it obviously takes longer. Exactly. To prove yourself. Exactly. I think you also have to move away from a somewhat short-termist logic. Yes. R00 In fact, here's the time, we need to take a little time, the long time, to work in depth on all these subjects of conversion and recommendation tension. And at the end of the year, I'll see what it brings me, but I think it's an essential investment today. But of course. It's become too difficult today to rely solely on acquiring new customers without taking the rest of the journey into consideration. But of course, in the current climate, it's very difficult to acquire new customers. It's very expensive to buy new customers. So you really have to ask yourself: once I've acquired this new customer and he's arrived at my home on my site, what do I do? And once they've actually bought, what do I do? What do I offer them in the post-purchase phase? What do I offer them in the post-purchase phase as a brand? You have to focus now on and I'm not saying you have to express it in the acquisition, not at all anyway, otherwise there's nothing, no, but in any case there's nobody going to your place, so it's done. It's fine if you make your best table for your best dinner, but if your guests don't come, it's a bit of a hassle. I'll finish with a point that seems very important to me, because brands often cringe when I say this, and that is that historically, brands have always been stronger on their social networks than on their own sites. It's quite absurd when you think about it. Social networks are rented. Social networks change. Before yesterday, it was Facebook. Yesterday, it was Insta. Today, it's TikTok. Tomorrow, it'll be something else. Your site, it doesn't move. It's your home, your house. So you can work on it over and over and over again. So you have to make sure you're as strong as ever. I'm not saying stronger, as strong on these social networks as on your site. And that makes all the difference. Yes, that's clear. And then, there you have it, creating points of contact between these social networks and your site. And once again, the question to ask yourself is, since it costs so much to acquire a customer, how do I really go about maximizing the impact of every customer I have today? To make them satisfied and then capitalize on that satisfaction to build loyalty and attract others, and create a kind of magnifying glass, a virtuous circle, so that my end-users can contribute to improving my conversion. Typically by rewarding a customer who posts reviews, who sends us the Jc, who makes referrals. Exactly. This will create a virtuous circle at the end of the window. Exactly. And as a result, you can potentially pay higher acquisition costs because I've made the LTV of a customer profitable, so I can increase my CAC quite mechanically. Yeah, and then there's also, I find, when you're an e-commerce manager, for example, and you're managing these issues for CRM managers, at the end of the year when you take stock, you say to yourself what projects I've set up and which have been successful, or even what projects I've tested precisely to remove all the problems I have in my funnel. And I think that you, like me, but like Just, like Omi even, whom I can quote, or like Paul Albu's Ubu on the DM Instagram part, are turnkey solutions that allow you at the end of the year to take stock and say, there you go, I've activated such and such and such a solution to try and respond to certain problems. Once again, I'm not telling brands to take everything. Of course, they can't all afford to do that. But at least, today, there are digital tools that allow you to have a turnkey solution in a few months, to say “this works or this doesn't work”, and to come back to a decision-maker and say “here we are at the beginning of the year, this is the roadmap”. I've activated these tools, it's working, it's not working. Next year, we'll go on, or we'll stop. But you see, today it's really important, even from a career point of view, to think about how I'm growing within an e-commerce brand, or how I'm moving into an even bigger brand where I'm, well, you see, growing as a person with experience and priorities. You have to back yourself up with tools because, frankly, they allow you to make a concrete difference by saying, you see, I've got loyalty, I've got a conversion rate, I've got DM Instagram engagement, I've used this tool, it's cost me time, here's the ROI, we're continuing, we haven't, but in any case, I've done some very concrete things. I've done some very concrete things. So you see, for people to ask themselves how to make progress on a daily basis and take my brand further, there are clear tools today that allow you to set up projects and calculate their ROI. Very interesting discussion. And then, to finish off the episode a little, I'd like to take a little step pack to see, because I think this is a subject that will be of interest to merchants. You talked about it, I think, with Hugo from Omy not long ago on a webinar and I think there was also Jérémy from I think on the perfect product sheet. Yeah. So, for you, it's a place on the site that you'll be looking at a lot. You've already got it. The Pdify, as we say in the business. So, what would the perfect product sheet be for you? I'm thinking of something that might be of interest. That's an excellent question. I think it's very important to test visuals. In fact, it's long and tedious to make pack shots and I think you have to be able to test lots of different pack shots and even season them. We were just talking about OMI. OMI allows you, if you want, to scan your product and say, “For Christmas, you can see my product in a certain environment during Mother's Day”. So you're going to lower your visuals. I think it's important for visuals to be premium, qualitative. Because the image we project of the product, it's important that the brand expresses itself at that moment, whatever the product we're selling. I think it's when we arrive, that we want to buy the product. The product has to be desirable. And just because it's not, you're not in the neighborhood. You see, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not showing off jewelry. But even when you're making children's toys, it's important to say to yourself, this is what I'm going to buy my son or daughter, or that I'm going to give it as a gift. My first point is to focus on the quality of the visuals, and to put some budget into this, whether it's a classic shoot or one using tools. First point. The second point is to think this product sheet mobile first. In other words, when we say a specific example, we're on figma, we've asked our designers to make the product sheet and we have to think mobile. You don't have to think mobile, you have to think mobile first. I see too many brands today who, when they present their figma, present us with their desktop architecture. I tell them, “You're very kind, guys, but that's fifteen percent of your traffic.” Quite frankly, that's not what interests me most, obviously, it converts more to desktop, but quite frankly, today you have to make the mobile difference. So thinking mobile, thinking mobile, means not too much text, not too much text because people don't read it and it makes for long product pages that are of no interest. That's why we integrate short video content that really explains what we've said in writing, but in video format. We add these web stories just below the to cart. We give priority to the to cart, because we really need the to cart to be as visible as possible. Underneath, we put the web story. So that's the last point. Well, it's the way to a point. And the last point is that we're going to continue with social proof with customer reviews. And here, yes, we need customer reviews, but let's make sure that these customer reviews are as authentic as possible. I'd prefer there to be fewer reviews if you want there to be reviews where you can feel that it's fake, because in fact you just have to remember that when people come to a site and see a product page, they have a gauge of trust. So the trust gauge either increases, and very often it increases by the drop, or it's lost a little by the liter. So in fact, if you adopt habits that aren't exactly extraordinary, your confidence gauge can immediately plummet. So I told the brands to be very careful about this. Yeah, you'd have to be really careful about customer reviews and companies putting photos in them. Videos too. Photos, videos, visuals. Once again, I encourage people to go to the Amazon product sheets where they can see the difference between a text review and a text review plus photo. In fact, people will realize that they're going to say yes, it's obvious. Because there really is this aspect, it's obvious and I encourage brands to do that. Yeah, definitely. I think there's a lot of good practices and a little question to finish with, you've got two types of brands that can potentially listen to us. You've got the brands that are just starting out, and then you've got the brands at the next stage that are going to scale a bit. Do you have any advice in relation to what we've just mentioned for these two categories of brands? I think the common advice I'd already give is to always AB test. I think there are too many brands that are not yet involved in AB testing. AB testing is really key because it provides a very important learning loop. I test my creatives, so you have to talk to your acquisition agency about AB testing. At Joy, on the real content side, we have the same site, we can test, test different content, ask ourselves what works, so that's a common piece of advice. Then, for brands just starting out, what advice would I give for O'Child? It's not to arrive saying I'm going to revolutionize my whole site, I'm going to put short video content on all my product sheets. In fact, if you have just one ref, there's no subject. If you have ten refs, there's no subject. On the other hand, if you have fifty or even thousands of refs, you start with the bestsellers or the products of the moment, and you start small. This allows us to do two things: firstly, it's a lot less demanding in terms of work. In fact, the mountain doesn't seem so high because, even when we have to sell the project internally, it's much lighter and, above all, it allows us to do things better because we can concentrate on a certain number of product sheets. Once again, we have learning and then this allows us to scale. So that's the first point for brands just starting out. The last tip is to humanize, so you take your UGC, you take content from creators, you film people internally, it's not necessarily the co-founder or co-foundresses, they don't want to show themselves. You take people who are keen to show themselves in-house and you make authentic content. Again, if brands really want to know exactly what to do, they can contact us. We have hundreds of examples to inspire them. And for brands that are scaling, the point is to say, okay, I've demonstrated that this works. So what do I do to be present on my entire site? What we see with brands like with the new with the new, they don't have more than fifteen thousand references on their site. So what they do is take the problems that are common to all their products. Typically, how do you authenticate a sneaker? And what's the delivery and return policy? And that's just a click away, thanks to Joy. For example, this winter, it was the hugs. And so they went into content creation mode, where they recovered content for this range and put it on these shoes. So it's a mix between common content and content that's unique to a given moment. So that's what makes it possible to, that's what makes it possible to scaler in my opinion. Too good. And so, can we find you my dear John and discover John Et simply on our joint site tiret stories dot com. If people want to contact me, it's very easy. It's jonathan at team joint dot f r. And on No, team joint attached. All right, then. Attached dot f r. And then if they want to follow us on the networks, we communicate a lot on LinkedIn, so joint on LinkedIn, John stories on Instagram and here we are used to communicating and we try to be, we're a b to b brand but we try to be hyper creative and to bring here content that is aesthetic for the people who watch us, to have a little dose of freshness and The proof he wanted to take a photo earlier, we had to redo it four times. Four times I told them, guys, if I don't have the perfect vertical photo for posting in a story, it won't work. Too good. Thanks a lot John. Thanks man. My pleasure. My pleasure. See you soon. See you soon. Ciao. Thank you for listening to this episode of Loyali Talks all the way through. I hope you've enjoyed it and found lots of tips to try out for your brand. If so, subscribe so you don't miss the next one. Spread the word and leave us a five-star rating on the Apple podcast, it helps us a lot. Finally, if you need to increase your LTV, don't hesitate to contact me on LinkedIn or on our dot I o website. See you soon.