Masterclass in e-commerce optimization (CRO, A/B testing, branding) (with Sébastien Tortu from Boost Conversion)

What I always say when people ask me what's your advice on entrepreneurship is that there are two things: get started and persevere. You see, it's only that because there are lots of people who get started and give up because they think it's going to go by fast and so on, but in fact it doesn't go by fast. You see, it's very, very rare to find three hundred customers in the first month, you see. But if you're resilient and you stick with it, it always works out in the end. Hello, you're listening to Lodely Talks, the podcast that's all about e-commerce. Once a month, I host an inspirational figure from the French e-commerce ecosystem for a friendly, unpretentious discussion on the subjects they're passionate about. The aim is to decipher e-commerce trends and share practical tips for making your e-shop a success. I'm Joseph Aubry, co-founder of Loyoy E, the loyalty and sponsorship platform that lets you engage your customers through more than fifty mechanisms. Sharing, user content, customer reviews and much more to increase your LTV and decrease your cac. If you like the look, subscribe and feel free to leave us five stars on Apple podcast or Spotify to support us. Enjoy your listening. Well, it's good to have you back on the roof of tourism. This is the second time I've done the first episode. For the record, we did an episode, but our sound wasn't recorded properly. So it was, it was great. So we're going to try to do even better this time. Of course we will. So you're a bit of a craftsman, a conversion craftsman. I help brands become more profitable and make more money, you see. So I'm almost, if you had to sum it up with jobs that everyone knows, I'm ultimately a salesman, you see, because I go and find customers for them, I convert them and in the end they're happy with the money they make. And before that, there's the doctor phase, I think, which is also interesting. Completely completely. That's how you would talk about this diagnostic part. In fact, my name is Sébastien Tentu, and I founded an agency called Boost Conversion, which we're now trying to develop into a bit of an ecosystem, with knowledge of tools and services, and precisely on the service side, which is really a CRO agency whose aim is to help e-merchants. So when I say e-tailers, it's not just b-to-c. You see, it's people who sell online, so it can be e-tailers of physical products that we know, but also of services, airlocks and so on. Our objective is twofold: to increase the conversion rate, to increase the average shopping basket, you see. And as a result, it increases a core value of our business, which is revenue per user. So our job is to do all kinds of things: optimize the site, create landing pages, run AB tests to help boost all this. And in fact, what's hidden in what you were saying about the doctor side is the whole analysis part. Eighty percent of our job is to understand the website's contact points, to understand what people see, what people click on, what people like, what people hate, the obstacles and the points that make them take action, and so on, in order to translate all that. And in fact, we're realizing that today, we're accompanying, we launched in January two thousand twenty three and we've had about eighty, well, we've had eighty customers since the beginning. And in fact, we realize that customers who make a million, customers who make thirty-five million, don't always have a great knowledge of their data, so as not to miss out on revenue. And in fact, there's a lot of, you know, instinct, et cetera. But in fact, you see here, we have a customer who makes over thirty million. I've taught him a lot about his business, which has been around for almost ten years, in just two weeks of analysis, you see, and that's great, because then you say, you see, it also opens up opportunities to do a lot more, so it's great. But you're thinking, yeah, there's a lack of understanding of data, which is super important, so yeah, we're here to make diagnoses and then go out and find customers. And yes, I think that's precisely the point we need to bear in mind: we often think that CRO is a series of hacks, hack and tricks, you see, but in fact what you're saying is that it's not that at all, there's really a part of analysis, a truly scientific methodology that needs to be applied in order to be able to do it. Hacks are really LinkedIn's CR0. You see, it's those who want to say they're doing CR0, they give you three hacks on your product sheet, move up the button, make sure the price is displayed there, and so on. But in fact, when you're in it every day, you realize that these optimizations often have little or no impact. Because in fact, it's much deeper than that. CR0 is about customer knowledge, working on the offer, working on the story, on storytelling, on UX. But UX really comes at the end of the process. If your offer isn't good, if people don't understand what you're selling, if your price isn't right, you can have the UX you want, but you won't sell. You see, if tomorrow you try to sell this for a hundred and fifty euros, even if I put the button in the right place, you're going to struggle, you see. That's what makes the difference, and it's often true that we get a lot of prospects who come in expecting a bit of a magic wand, and when you tell them that, either they become aware of it, and in the end it reassures them to say to themselves, I wasn't that far off the mark, and it's not three things that are going to change everything. Except that it was a pain because they said to themselves, but I was expecting a magician and in fact the guy is telling me who's going to build something that's going to take time, you know. But in fact that's it. So it's a bit like SE0, you see, it's long-term work on which you come, you understand, you understand the data, you understand what's going on, you understand the competition and then as you go along, you come up with ideas, find things that will improve the customer experience. Yeah, too good, and yeah, to change the subject a bit, yeah, you also published a book a while back. Which was pretty, well I'd like to talk about it again because it was pretty interesting. I even published two of them, I published one in two thousand and nine called DNVB le renouveau du commerce. The idea was to meet these brands at the time, because it was written in two thousand and eighteen, so these were brands that hadn't existed very long. Nowadays, we've all heard of DNVBs, but back then, they were fairly new. And in fact, I went to meet ten of the founders. Inside, there was Teddyberg, Bergameote, Merci Andy, Tito, the French briefs, Feed, well, there really was only one that has since closed, but otherwise they're all still around, and the idea was to finally understand their business model, what they were offering, and so on. So there was a real relationship between branding and value propositions that were different at the time. Selling on the web, I remember when I met Teddy back then, all their coms were on direct d'usine, you know. We sell on the web, there are no intermediaries. Nowadays, it's a bit, it's a bit, it's a bit of a worn-out vocabulary. You see, everyone's said it, everyone's, well, it's no longer of any value to the individual customer. But what's more, because we're realizing that it's difficult to sell exclusively on the Internet, to have zero intermediaries. Anyway, it's getting complicated, so, but but but so back then, there was that, yes. And then in two-thousand-and-one, I released. It's not a sequel, but there's a continuity all the same, called brand ikigai. It was a time in my life when I was wondering what I was going to do. I became interested in the ikigai model, which is a Japanese philosophy that aims to strike a balance between what you love, what you want to do, what you're good at and what the world needs. And in fact, as I was doing all this work, I said to myself, that sounds a lot like a brand objective. Make your customers happy, make your employees happy, have a clear vision, know where you're going, be of service to your customers. Anyway, I said to myself, this works well. And so, I translated the philosophy to the world of brands and came out with a second book, which is very, very, very branding, because the objective was how to emerge in saturated markets with a limited budget. So it was really aimed at people who'd read a bit of DNVB and were thinking, “How do I do this?” And here I was giving them a bit of a method on how to go about creating a distinctive brand when you're not flush with cash and you haven't raised millions of euros. And it worked really well, I got a lot of feedback on it, from people who read it both as a pure marketing book and as a book, I'm not going to say of philosophy or personal development, but you know, of reflection on how you approach your business, because there were quite a few things in it. I remember that I'm a big believer in starting a brand when you have a real enemy. And when I say enemy, it's not someone, you know, but it's really a fact of society, habits or whatever it is that you really want to change. And in fact, when you feel it, when you have the fire of it in you, in fact, that's your brand, you see. And you see it with guys who then after extreme, not extreme, whatever, but you see a guy like Feed who at the beginning, you see his enemy, it was clear, the lost time, the thing, et cetera. Well, you don't like it, you don't like it, but there are people who feel themselves in it, who find values, who find that the mission appeals to them. And at that point, it's a cause. Ready, yeah a cause and they're ready you see to defend themselves and so on and so forth. It's a bit like, it's the period, but a bit like a political party. You see, there are people who are ready to defend causes and go to markets every Sunday, putting up posters at night. You see, they're the kind of people who can't wait. Well, you can do the same thing with a brand, but for that, you know, you really need to have a common cause, a common enemy, and then everything follows from that. So that was kind of the theme of the book. Yeah, it's a really cool approach, you know, it's a bit of a mixture of different worlds, and the notebook approach is really interesting from a personal development point of view. So I think it's a really cool approach. And the follow-up to that, I imagine, is to help you find your value proposition. It's often a complicated exercise. We're laughing because we're working on it at the moment for Loyoly. In fact, as we're doing it, we're realizing that it's really not that easy. And you, what would be What's not obvious? No, tell me. Because in fact, you ask someone to describe themselves, to be in four words, five words, 6 words, ten words. And can you imagine if I had to sum you up in five words? You'd have a hard time finding those five words and you'd take a long time to say, that's it, that's me. Especially because, on top of all that, it's moving. You see, a brand is never fixed at a given moment. And then, you see, there are opportunities, there are tricks, and so it's difficult. And so it's a real exercise that's complicated. Because at some point, you have to say to yourself, okay, I'm actually following this now, and maybe in three months, 6 months, a year, two years, I'll be a little different, and that's okay. We'll update, we'll evolve. And typically for a brand, you know, that's just starting out, what would be a little bit of your advice, you know, to help it find its value proposition? Do you have any tips on this? For me, as I was saying, a brand that's just starting out really needs to have a hyper hyper hyper enemy, you know, on which it's really going to focus all its communication, all its energy to say, here we are, we want to change this, we want to change such and such and such. Some say we want to change the world. No, before the I try to change a small part of something and you'll see that it'll help you, it'll advance you in your thing. And then, above all, there's your own enemy, who has to think in your customers' heads, and that's precisely what it's all about, saying to yourself who my customers really are, you know who my product's customers are, and paying close attention to its positioning too, because you see a clothing brand, there are a thousand different customers. You see where you're positioned, if you're in Paris, not in Paris, if you're expensive, not expensive. In short, you see, there are lots of elements. So, it's really about finding that positioning that's important, so that you can then find the right customers to go with it, and then really find something that resonates with them, that motivates them, that projects them, because that's really what the customer needs to tell himself, that his objective isn't to buy your product. His objective is to get the result of this product, but in a selfish way. Sometimes, it's going to be, I don't know, to feel better about yourself, to look more stylish, to look smarter, whatever. But in fact, his goal is never really, unless you're selling chocolate ice cream maybe, you know, it's going to be to, but last time, it's to enjoy chocolate, you know what I mean the, but you know like, so it's really to think what his goal is, you know, and how my product ultimately helps achieve that goal. That's really what's so important, you know. Because, again, nobody wants to buy your product. Nobody buys a product to buy a product. They buy a product for something. You buy a Jaguar for something, either because you're passionate about it, you know them all, it's your childhood dream, or because you're going to impress your wife. There's always a real reason. And in fact, that's often what I say, that there's the declarative reason and then there's the real reason. For example, imagine I'm buying the new Louis Vuitton bag. The declarative reason is that it's a super-quality product made in France. And then the truth is, I want to be, I want to look super stylish. Maybe I want to show that I've become rich, maybe I want to, you know. And I'm never going to tell you that. You see, I don't want to, I don't want to tell you because in fact, I'm loaded, I want everyone to know. Nobody says that. So that's what's super important, and that's to understand both. You see, it's about understanding exactly what people really want what they say and what they don't say, you see. And I often give a very simple example: you go to a restaurant, you enter a restaurant, you say hello, I'd like a table. But you don't want a table, you see. But that's what you say. Except that the restaurant owner, what does he understand He wants to have dinner, have a good time, maybe seduce the person in front of him, maybe show him that he's well educated, that he's leaving. It's eight years old. It's eight years old. Maybe he wants to show her a great place. Anyway, but he's not going to say all that. You're never going to book a restaurant and tell her tonight, I'm bringing a girl I want to seduce. I'm going to show her that I'm super-educated and that I know where I'm taking her, et cetera, that there'll be good music and all that. I've never been told that. I'm booked for two, you see. Except that there's all that induced, and that's what's important. It's not about stopping at the beginning, otherwise you give him a table. So no, no, it's really interesting to see how, once you've found that somewhat unique value proposition, you manage to bring your prospect along, to make him understand that you're also going to respond to his implicit request and his real motivation. What would be your advice on how to create a brand story that, when you read it as a potential consumer-prospect, allows you to say to yourself, ok this is made for me, it responds to both my declarative problem and my real problem, you see, are there any angels of attack, any methods? There's a real need to get to know the customer, i.e. who he is, what he does, how he behaves, what he says. You see, for example, if you're talking to fourteen- or sixteen-year-olds, you're going to have to speak their vocabulary, you're going to have to have their code, you're going to have to have all that so that they recognize you right away. And that's what's often very difficult, because brands tend to give in to fashions, trends and so on. Which, in the end, doesn't always correspond to their target audience. And so, you see, it creates incoherence. In fact, this incoherence is one of the main mistakes brands make. You see, it's saying, I'm trying so hard to stick to the TikTok code that in the end, but for whom You see I'm trying to, you know And in fact, in the end, they get a bit lost. So, there's really this work that's almost central, that's the basis of everything, to really understand who they are, what they want, where you want to take them, to maybe also be able to improve or increase their desires, i.e. to finally say, I wanted this, I wanted that, but I'm going to be able to add to you because, in fact, I've thought of things that you haven't even thought of yourself. So this is going to be really important. And the real secret is to be able to repeat it long enough for it to get into people's heads. Because I've seen a lot of brands that, in the beginning, had a great brand platform, a great value proposition. And then it got diluted over time, often due to internal fatigue. Because in fact, they say to themselves, but we've already said that a hundred times. Yeah, yeah, okay. But in fact, the person in front of you hasn't heard it a hundred times. And in the meantime, they've heard it a hundred times from someone else, so they need to, you know, just do it. You see, Nike's been doing this for how many years now and yet they keep telling you over and over and over and over again. Because it actually works, because it's printing and so on. So it's really that, you see once you've really found that problem, that way of expressing it, your good positioning, your good voice, etcetera, it's about keeping it long enough for people to understand who you are, understand what you do. It's stupid of me, but it's been a year and a half since I launched the conversion boost. I'm now seeing the effects of all the work I did a year and a half ago. You see, because at the beginning you did LinkedIn posts, you got an e-mail from time to time, or something, and now you feel that even when we don't do anything, you've got people coming in because there's such and such talking about you, because they've got your newsletter, because they've seen your YouTube, they've seen your Insta, they've seen your.... And in fact, you see, it's this ball that you have to be able to take away. At first, it's heavy. And then, when it rolls, it delivers, you know. And that's a real thrill. It's true that if you change your shoulder wire every four mornings, you're not going to get any compound effects in the end. Ah, but completely. And that's what you have to look for. It's like in finance, it's like in conversion optimization, compound effects, you improve that by five percent, then two percent, then twelve percent. And in fact, it's not just five plus two plus two. It's that everything adds up and in the end, everything takes shape and all of a sudden, you're able to attract people you'd never have attracted a while ago, you know. Yeah, okay, it's really interesting, this branding part, and it's not bad because I think the conversation is pretty good, you know, it's kind of in the order of things. So now I'd like to talk about something a little more concrete. Once you've done all that, what advice would you give on the conversion path? So, if we go back in order, you've defined your brand, your values, your positioning, your off voice, your brand platform, I can imagine all these elements. And then, once you've got all that in place, once you've launched the thing, once you've been doing the same thing for a while, once you've rehearsed it well, how are you going to optimize the different stages of the buying journey? I've obviously taken this name to make a bit of a pun on the red and blue ocean. As a reminder, the red ocean is how Green Ocean bills. Yes, exactly. Well, that's kind of the point, but basically, the red ocean, you see, the ocean where you have all your competitors, et cetera, where it's hard to express yourself and in the end, you have to lower your prices to try and sell. Basically, if I sum up in two seconds, the blue ocean, ah there, there's no competitor. I've found a different field of expression. And, as a result, I'm able to sell at the right price, make money and so on. Except that today, the blue ocean doesn't really exist anymore, because as soon as there's a blue ocean, two or three months later, Yes, it's your twenty-five competitors, because they've seen your ads on Insta and launched the same product. So, you see, apart from being ultra-innovative, and having registered some amazing patents and all. It's all very complicated, you see. Because everything moves too fast, because nowadays, if you launch something worldwide, there's a guy who may have already launched it in Spain. It's that complex. So, in fact, the blue ocean has become red, and you say, “What am I doing? And in fact, what makes everything red today is that all brands are trying to communicate with people who understand, who understand, who are ready to buy. You know, the famous five levels of consciousness. Yes, three percent choice. Exactly. You have three percent of people who are ready to buy. And in fact, you, your competitors and your indirect competitors are trying to reach the same three percent. So it's expensive because as soon as you advertise on Meta, since it's all the same guys who are reached, it's very expensive. Competition is crazy. They see you and all your competitors. Two days ago, I went to do a little research on mattress sites for a new client. I can tell you that in the last three days, I've received twenty-five e-mails, well twenty-five postings from competitors of what's-his-name, and so on. I mean, you're a customer, you don't even know what to do with what. You know what I mean. It makes me laugh, but when you're a real customer, you say, who chooses, why, and so on. So it's very complicated. And so you're always trying to get that three percent. Except that, in fact, there are four other levels. So, there are the people who are ready to buy, the people who know about your product, the people who know about the solution, the people who know about the problem you're solving and the people who are, who know nothing. And in fact, you realize that the higher you go, the more people you have who are ready to be educated, who are ready to understand things, especially those who at least know your problem. If you don't, it's more complicated to convert them. But at least those who know your problem, and you realize that all of a sudden you're no longer at three percent, but at fifty percent of the market, and you're going to be able to go after people who are less targetted, who are less targeted by your competitors, and you're going to be able to tell them something else, and you're going to be able to tell them a real story. You'll be able to tell them about your problem, how you solved it, how many people helped you solve this problem too, how it changed their lives, and so on and so forth. And that really, really makes all the difference, because all of a sudden, you realize that you're taking a step back, that you're telling your brand story a little differently, that you're going to test different value propositions still obviously around your product, around all that, but you're going to be able to test things, you see. We've been working for nine months with Spring, a laundry detergent brand. And you see, we've been looking for very practical angles around I've just had my washing powder delivered to my house, so I don't have to think about it anymore, I don't have to carry heavy cans and so on. More ecological angles, angles, well, you know, angles today we're testing angles too babies you know in the mode washing powder can be harmful to our baby etc. because in fact it's the truth there's an exchange and it's a hit. Instead of trying to sell them a direct laundry detergent subscription, maybe we can tell their stories with something else, get their mail, make them understand and eventually, they'll buy. We launched a hyper-generalist ebook on the home, how to take care of the house, and so on. We launched the same one for babies, you see. We thought, obviously, the baby's going to cost more, we're going to have fewer conversions, we're going to whatchamacallit, et cetera. It's just the opposite. It's just the opposite. You say the general practitioner, not the people. The baby is such a problem for people who have a baby that they're ready to download it, they're ready to take action. And you see, that's what's interesting. When Spring first started out, he never would have said to himself, “Oh, I'm going to reach women with children who are worried about washing their babies,” you know. Because in fact it's not a basic market. You see, like, there aren't any crazy Google queries, you see, and so you say there's no market, except that in fact you can create one because there's a real problem, and so that's what you have to do, and so you have to go and find these real problems in people who are ready to take action. And in fact, there are a lot more of them than you'd think. Okay, and yet you could say that you see the method in green too, but it takes longer. Because you're going to talk to people who aren't yet ready to buy. But then, as you were saying in your typical example about babies. So, potentially, these are people who, you see, weren't even aware of the problem. They're very ready to buy. And as a result, they're hot. Because once they know. Yeah, they are. You can imagine that once you know that the detergent you use to wash your baby's clothes is hyper-toxic because it contains products that are bad for your health, et cetera. First of all, you're killing the planet. Secondly, you're putting yourself and your child at risk. Then you take action very, very quickly. You know, like, you don't have to, you don't have to wait. So in fact, you've got a real, you've got a real conversion rate that's going to go up. So no, no, it's not and that's where it's important and that's where there's a real, there's a real trick to it. It's to say to myself, and I've had the feeling since I launched it that people understand this, because I've become such a busy calendar. In fact, you realize that there are people who have real problems, but who don't know it yet. And those people, I can tell you it's a piece of cake because nobody tells them. Yeah. And once you tell them you've found the right angle, it's bingo. Do you have any tips on how to find the right angles? Do you have any other examples, you know, that we could use as inspiration Tips for finding the right angles. And once you've really been there, you have to say to yourself, you know, for example, ninety percent of the people who buy washing powder are women. Okay. Okay. So it's to say to yourself, what are all the elements that ultimately make up their daily lives, so you can't, you can't generalize one hundred percent of women, but you see, what are the elements that ultimately make up their daily lives, and which could be problems that you're going to solve. And once you've got that, you see that you've got that list, you say to yourself, there are some who have more potential than others. Some fit perfectly with our, our product, and others maybe a little less so. And once there, for example, you see, you say OK, there's a real subject baby what's-his-name. You're going to launch landing pages instead, because the idea isn't to change your whole site and say tomorrow I'm a specialist in baby detergent. It's to say to yourself, I'm going to launch three ads that will highlight this problem. Be careful, washing powder can be extremely harmful to your baby, etc., and explain why. You take them to a landing page that tells them that it's a danger, that you have to be extra careful, that the products are really bad, etc., but that there are solutions. And all of a sudden, people, they're going to, they're going to at least be interested, maybe even buy very very quickly, you see And you can achieve conversion rates that would be very, very high. You see, because you're looking for that hard, you know, painful, urgent, recurring problem. You see, hard, hard, hard and recognized, not recurrent, recognized. That the person, you know, when you have a baby, you know you don't want Yeah. So sometimes, you see the, in fact in a landing page, you make it hard, you see, you make it painful, urgent and recognized, you see, because in fact, they didn't know. And then, all of a sudden, it becomes hyper urgent because they're aware of it. Yeah, right. So they take an interest in problems that may seem peripheral, and go and test different attacks. Right. Once again, it's all about knowing your customers, and that's why the hacks you see on LinkedIn are often not a good way of doing things, because in fact, it's not by changing the button, by changing the color of your CTA, by changing this step, that you're going to get that. So there's a real need to get to know your customers, to take an interest in them. I always say, if you're in marketing, it's because you like people. Otherwise, you're not marketing. Because if you're not interested in what they feel, what they experience, what they do, you'll never be able to talk to them, you know. It's like a friend, it's like love, you know. If at some point you're not able to understand the person in front of you, to adapt yourself, to adapt your speech, your position, to understand that maybe they've had a bad day and that you're going to have to test yourself because they don't need to talk to the world right now. But if you cook her a nice dinner, maybe she'll be fine. But it's exactly the same thing really. When you, when you have a brand, it's the same. You have to be able to talk to these people, to be interested in them, to be in love with them and, above all, to want to solve their problems. And once you've solved someone's problem, remember the person who taught you to read, for example - you often remember who taught you to read. Someone who solves a problem that's important to you, who's given you a tip, you know, about everyday life and who's really changed something for you, you remember. Yeah, that's good. But it's for a crazy person because if people remember you, they buy from you again, they trust you, they trust you for a long time and before and once you trust someone, before you go elsewhere, I don't know if you've got a baker with whom every time you go to see him, he asks you if everything's okay, sincerely, you go to see him, maybe he's a little better somewhere else, but he's still a hell of a lot nicer. That's branding and that's conversion, because in the end it's completely aligned. Would you say that this is one of the most common mistakes you see merchants make? So I'm interested to know if this is a recurring thing, I think it helps. Are there other things you see that are really recurrent every time you accompany customers that we can perhaps avoid, you know, for those who listen to us? The thing is, merchants often think in silos, you see. There's branding, there's conversion, there's SE0, there's, you know, meta campaigns, there's whatever. But in fact, they tend to look at things in silos and not combine all that. And in fact, when you ask them about it, it often seems like a mountain to them because, once again, they're looking for very fast results, results that will prove themselves tomorrow morning. I recently had a customer who, after two days of testing, had a mission. That's fast. That's fast. It's fast. That's fast. Thinking, this isn't my, this isn't the results I was expecting, et cetera. But in fact, you can't just succeed overnight, you know. With Spring, it took us a month to get results that weren't good. After a few weeks, you see, we were making more than thirty-four percent per user. When you know that millions of euros are spent on acquisition, that's a lot of money at the end of the year. So, it's, you see, it takes time because, precisely, knowledge, because you don't get to know someone in two days, you need to learn the brand, understand, et cetera. So it's really about breaking down silos and really looking at the medium term. You see, conversion is a medium-term thing. That's a really important thing, and an important thing that I often see as a mistake - well, it's not a mistake. It's an observation that they don't know how to make. It's that often, at the start of your entrepreneurial adventure, at the start of your company, you have a conversion rate that's going to be quite high, because you tell your friends about it, because you know about the novelty, because all that, you know. And in fact, you see, you have a real product market fit and then there's, you see, and I made a video about this on the YouTube channel, the two-point-zero product market fit, i.e. you see, you pass a positive curve, you have a conversion rate that's good and in fact, after a while, you're obliged to expand to go and find new customers. And then your conversion rate drops. But that doesn't mean that your business is dying, you know. It's just that it's normal, because in fact, people don't do anything new anymore, you're in a more classic competition, and so on. So in fact, they're not going to buy you right away, they're not going to have that same excitement, et cetera. And in fact, this objective, well, the objective at this point is to say, okay, I don't have the customers I had at the beginning. Expectations aren't the same. The, you know, the problem you're solving isn't quite the same. And so, it's a question of understanding who these new customers are, in order to pass on the message. And often, our customers, our prospects, come to us just as they're coming down and say I don't know, I don't understand what's going on. Perfect, in fact, in a more normal way. That's what a cycle is like if you... Exactly. It's a compulsory cycle. Except that once you manage to increase your conversion rate, given that your base is ten times bigger, you make a lot more sales, you see. But you have to be able, you see, to accept this little trunk, which can sometimes last a few months for certain brands, the time it takes to understand and analyze everything. And that, yeah, that's super key. So it's not easy because when you're a brand, you want everything to be positive, you know, your conversion rate and your sales are easy. But the truth is, it doesn't work. You see, it's a bit like everything else. Yeah, that's for sure, that's for sure. So yeah, you've got to be pretty resilient and also understand that it's a question of cycle and put the right things in place to test, test, test again until it all comes back, quite simply. Yes, it's true that when you talk about resilience, it's really a point I insist on a lot, but it's not easy to get across to someone opposite, who has a cash flow, who has salaries to pay, and so on. It's not easy, and I understand that a hundred percent. We're entrepreneurs too, so sometimes I have honest discussions with people, saying, in fact, it's going to take time. If you don't have that time, we're not going to be able to do much, because you're going to put pressure on us that we can't handle. In fact, it's not up to us to bear your fixed costs, that sort of thing, you see. But what's important is that, these days, we're often fed up with business deals that have blown up in three months, that we're doing for a hundred and fifty thousand euros because they've passed on who's going to be my partner, that we're doing something, and so on. But in fact, it's a tiny minority, you know, a few business cases a year, you know. Except that ninety-nine percent of brands don't work like that. You know, and so you have to be aware. We all want to be super special, to be above the fray, all that stuff. But in fact, we often don't beat them at all, you know. And in the end, you see, it's a bit like soccer players, you know, who've been doing it all their lives and who, whatever happens, they'll be the substitute. Except that if you take the PSG substitute, he's a, you know, he's part of the zero point zero zero zero one percent, you know. Except maybe he thinks he's a loser. And in fact, brands are often a bit like that. They take examples that aren't the right ones, and there are a lot of lies too. That's one of the subjects we talked about in the first podcast, and that's that I don't think there's enough solidarity in the French ecosystem. There are too many lies, you see. Again, I was listening to a podcast, I'm not going to quote it, but I was listening to a podcast where someone was talking about how a brand on Pinterest was successful because they were selling Pinterest, you know. Okay. And this brand is with us, and I've got the results and they're catastrophic, you know, really catastrophic. So I sent him a message, I said dude I don't think it's cool because actually take another example. You know, like I hope you have other examples, take another example because you're actually lying. If someone says to themselves, this is an inspiration, I'm going to do what he did, you're sending him up the wall. You see, and that's not cool, you see. So you look good, et cetera, it's great, but you have to be careful what you say. And I think there's a real need for transparency, education and sharing in the ecosystem. Personally, I'd be all for brands sharing more results. You see, even we sometimes have a hard time, there are quite a few brands who say no, but I don't want to share anything, I don't want people to know, you see, I don't want my competitors to be able to come and see and so on. I understand, you see, but in fact you're not educating the market, you're not educating the ecosystem, and so you've got brands that are struggling, that aren't making it and so on. So it's something we're trying to push hard, to create a lot of content. You see, that's what our method was within Green, which was to say, “We'll give you everything we know and then you do it yourself, but we'll give you everything we know. And so you can progress, you can progress like that and we support you, you see today, we launched it a month ago, I was looking at it before coming, we've had one hundred and thirty-four customers. You see, one hundred and thirty-four brands could never have had my advice, well, our advice, because maybe they didn't have the means, maybe they didn't want to, maybe they didn't want all that. Except that here, they have it, you see How much do you want to call me? It's three hundred euros. But it's not just a document, it's ten hours of ten hours of video, we've got ten hours of video, we've got templates already done in figma for landing pages, templates already done in we've got a tool we've developed, we've got well it's really a hyper complete thing and besides we're going to increase the price you see because in fact we're going to add stuff and we're really going to increase the price and I've put it clearly on the site Yeah it's not very expensive you see. No, no, no, but the idea behind it, my objective, I haven't said it, but really the mission of Bourse Conversion is to help our customers, the French e-commerce industry, to generate at least a hundred million euros in sales that they wouldn't have had without us, you know. One day, I hope we'll say we're aiming for a billion, you know, but we're not far from twenty million in a year and a half, and that's accelerating every month because we have more customers, we have the biggest customers, so it's having a much greater impact. As you can see, we've signed the sanctuary and so on, and things are moving much faster. So that's kind of the objective, and the idea is to say, you know all these brands, they're going to, they're going to be able to benefit from all this advice. Clearly, three hundred euros isn't even a day's freelance work. And I might as well tell you that inside, you're worth a hundred times more than that. But because, in fact, my aim isn't to get rich with it. My goal is to help, but it's to fulfill my mission. It's about helping people. I don't do it for free because it cost me fifteen thousand francs, you see, to do it between the video shoots, the matches, well you see, it costs money, it takes an incredible amount of time, it costs money. So it was out of the question for me to give it away. But you see, it's three hundred euros today. And the aim is that by the end of the year, it should be a thousand, but because we're going to be adding lots of stuff and so on, and once you've got all that, you know how to convert it. You've got all the tools to, you know, and we're going to develop tools, you know, we've developed by mail de prompt and so on. We're currently working on a tool to go even faster, to enable people to do things even more easily. That's our brand mission, you see. Our brand mission is really to help the French ecosystem, to be as transparent as possible. Inside, we share everything. So the results of Spring, of our sanctuaries, of whatever, you have them inside. If you don't have it, you don't have it. But because it's addressed, you know, to a microphone, you know, it's a hundred and thirty people, you know. If I put it on YouTube and I get three thousand views, Spring, they're not going to be happy. For a hundred and thirty, they're ready to accept it because at the same time it's hyper-useful for everyone. Yeah, that's clear. And it's interesting to go into a bit more detail about all these metrics, you know, to understand your business a bit too, so that brands can get an idea of benchmarks. I find that in the end we saw the discussion a bit conversion rate versus revenue per user. Can you tell us about all the KPIs you're going to be tracking, and the revenue per user that's going to be the North star, if I do say so myself? Exactly. In fact, when we talk about a CR0 agency, we often mean a conversion rate optimization agency. So you get the impression that's all it is. But it's really about conversion rate and average shopping basket. And that gives you revenue per user. So it's every time a customer comes to your website, how much they bring in, you see. Every time a visitor comes to your website, if they're not even your customer yet, how much they bring in. And you see, some brands have a revenue per user of one euro. So every time someone comes in, they earn one euro. Others are at five euros, seven euros, and we have one with over ten euros. So every time someone comes in, who buys it or doesn't buy it, he earns ten euros, you see. And that gives you a real way of managing your business. Why? Because some people will increase the conversion rate, but decrease the average basket, for example. And then, of course, it's pointless. You see. So that's really, really important. It's a matter of understanding these three metrics, which are hyper-central, and it's true that I've met very few brands that know about user revenue, and know how to drive it, you see. So it's really a huge diff. And I remember we talked about it to find out if your revenue per user is good. So there's no perfect answer, but the first thing is to understand what your traffic sources are. If you're one hundred percent SE0, you may need a slightly lower revenue per user because your traffic costs you less. If you're one hundred percent meta, you've already got your click-through rate, your cost-per-click, which will come into play. If you spend eighty cents and at the end of the day, it brings in one euro, you're going to have a hard time because you won't be able to pay for your product, you won't be able to pay people to work, you won't be able to pay for all that, so when you have a pretty good marketing mix, you see, with a bit of SE0, a bit of meta, a bit of newsletter, a bit of all that, if your revenue per user is below one euro fifty, it's a bit hot. You're going to have to work at it, because that means you're looking at a cost per click that's currently at fifty-sixty cents. You've got your product, you've got to pay for it. You've got your people, you've got to pay them. So below one euro fifty, you quickly see that it's complicated. When you're between them, you see one euro fifty and three euros, you start to get on a good vibe, you don't want to, because you're going to have the capacity to acquire customers, the capacity to do retargeting, to do a lot of things, a lot of actions, the capacity to take Loyoly to build loyalty, to make sure they become ambassadors. You see, you have the capacity to invest a little more. When you're above three euros, that's when things start to look very, very good. It starts to feel very, very good, especially when you're at scale. If it's at the very beginning and you've got a hundred hits, fine. But you see, when you scale up, we have a customer, you see, who makes over thirty million, who has a revenue per user of seven euros. Oh yeah. It's very, very strong, you see. It's very, very strong. It means that it converts very well, that it has a big average basket. Then, of course, it depends on your margins, it depends on a lot of things, you know. But already, you know that his business is ultra-healthy. And that's important. You see, it's like your body temperature, you know, you know where you stand. You know that the business is very healthy. So that's really the base base base metrics we're looking at. After that, we're going to look at four metrics, but you do this to make a quick diagnosis. We're going to look at how many people see your products out of the number of people who come to your site. Okay. It sounds silly, but then again, it's b to c b to b to b, so it can be either a product sheet, or a product page, you know from a b to b site. But often people, they think, people who come to my site, they see products. You know, it sounds logical. Except that, in fact, the average is forty-eight percent. So that means there's roughly fifty percent of the people who come to your site. Who don't see any products. Now that's weird. How's it going? An important blog, but a blog about articles, you know, that don't bring in any business. People, they come, they don't see, they see the article, they leave, they haven't seen any products. People who stop at the top, people who stop at the category cards. In fact, when you look at all your pages, take out all the product sheets, and look at the bounce rates on the pages, you soon realize that forty-eight percent isn't too shabby. And that's the average. Sometimes we get customers who come to us and say I've tried everything, I've optimized my product sheets, and so on. When you look at the site without the data, you think it's the same, like I didn't quote badly. And in fact you realize that they have, I had a case last week, they had twenty-four percent of people who saw products. That makes seventy-five percent of people who don't see. So you have the feeling. So I say to him, look, if you calculate on twenty-four percent of sessions, you've got a great conversion rate. You've got a great add-to-cart, you've got, but the problem is your traffic and there's not much we can do about that, it's not our job. So you have to go and see an SEO agency so that people don't arrive on your blog, but arrive on your category pages or whatever, you see. So again, that's why we're good doctors. But and and and because often, frankly, it's something I do very very very often, I tell people, it's not us actually. You have to go and see someone else, you see. I've spent some time, certainly, fine, I want to, what am I going to do to you You see, I'm not going to, I'm not going to sell you for not getting results. So that's the first hyper-important metric, and nobody knows it. Really, like, nobody, really, again, brands of all levels, nobody knows it. And then there are brands that have seventy percent product views. Why? Because they're sending all their meta traffic to the product pages. So you see. So that's an important point to bear in mind. The second important point is the number of additions to the shopping cart for people who have seen products. Because again, if you calculate over all the sessions, you come back to the same subject. Here, on average, we're around twelve percent. Okay. So if you recalculate on one hundred percent of your traffic, that's about five and a half, six percent. Yes. For the people who see it, it's about twelve percent. So, you come to play, you come to know exactly the quality of your product, the quality of your price positioning and the quality of your product sheet in general, you see. If you see that you're really under this twelve percent, I've seen four percent, and so on. You're saying there's a real problem with the offer, you see, which isn't just UX, et cetera. So it can be interesting. When you've got a brand with less than three thousand products, it's interesting because you think, well, maybe we'll rework the offer, maybe the price, we'll do some ABT on things, and so on. That can be interesting. After that, if you see that you've got three thousand products and your add-to-cart rate isn't good, then there's a problem somewhere. So that's the second metric you really need to look at. The third super-key metric is obviously the rate of people who have added to the shopping cart versus the rate of people who have bought, you see. And there you have everything that's lost in your funnel. So it's going to be, you know, here, you've added five euros for shipping, so it wasn't planned, you've got a connection where you're obliged to send I don't know a validation e-mail so that the guy has to go and click to create his account before he can buy, well, you know, like that, you know, you can't do it, like that's for sure. You see, it can be a lot of things like that, the payment methods that aren't the right ones. Frankly, today, especially when your target is between fifteen and thirty-five years old, if you don't have Apple Pay, if you don't have Google Pay, if you don't have all that, forget it. You lose an enormous percentage of your business. It happened to me as a customer, there's no Google Pay, there's no Apple Pay, I don't have my card, I don't buy. It happened to me recently and I said to myself, “Oh dear, this can't be happening! But because in fact, the brands and that, that's a point I find hard to explain, but it's that you see, sometimes I work with people who are hyper, I don't know how to say it, but in what you see like they're on top of the trend and everything. As a human being, as a company founder, they're in a thousand and nine hundred and ninety-two, you know, and you don't understand why you say to yourself, “Fuck, you buy with Apple Pay all the time, but why don't you have it on your site? You know what I mean, like you realize that when you have Apple Pay with any brand, you click on it, yeah, so what do you do, you see, because in fact we don't have my credit card on me anymore. You see, so if there's no, well, you see, it's this kind of thing that's going to make and so you see, you've got these three metrics that already give you a global overview, you see. And then you know exactly where you're losing. Where you're losing. Definitely. And then you can go into detail about everything. But already, you see, you say to yourself OK, do people see my products Once they see my products do they add to the basket Once they've added to the basket what do they buy. Yeah, it's all stupid. All the steps. You see, it's all stupid. Then you can enter each step, each one. Yeah, yeah. But already, if the brands that come to see us were able to say, I've got a problem in such and such a place, and I don't know how to solve it, that would show real maturity. Often they don't know. And again, and I had this discussion with a prospect two days ago. I'm not saying you suck, because we all have a thousand projects. We all have a thousand projects, we just don't have the time, you know. Here, I had a prospect who was almost self-flagellating, saying to himself, but I don't understand how I didn't see it sooner and all. Now that we've seen it, we're working on it, you know. But there you go, it's these, these are really metrics that you have to spend time on. And then, one of the metrics that's really really key, which is you go to GA four on Google analytics four you go to event landing page or landing page and you look at the pages on which you're making the most finally the landing pages so the first page people visit that generates the most sales. If it's your home page, it's a bad sign because it means that there's information on this home page that people can't find, that people who don't arrive on this home page can't find elsewhere, and which therefore doesn't help them convert. So it's a good sign that your home page is good, or at least better than the rest. It also means that this is a very, very common mistake, or one that I notice very, very regularly, and that's that people play treasure hunter on their website. They'll put a bit of information on the home page, a bit of information on the product pages, a bit of information on the category pages and then they'll put a brand story page and then think that just like if you were going to buy an apartment, you'd look at everything - that's it, people would go through the whole website. No, nobody does that. They go to the page you're sending it to, and if it doesn't have the key information, they'll leave. And that's why landing pages often work so well. Because, in fact, we tend to spread the word a little bit over a little bit of everything, you see, so that when people leave, they get an overall view of what you're offering, who you are, your advantages, your services, everything you're all about. So that's really a key point. So these landing pages changed to four. You look at them and you'll often see that if your pages, your category pages, are the ones that bring in the most business, then your site is pretty good. Because it means that people arrive on these pages, understand what you're doing, don't need to go browsing everywhere, understand what you're doing, are redirected to the right product and go on to buy. So that's a pretty good sign. Okay. And you, in your appeals, would you tend to say don't dilute the messages too much, you know, put lots of pages, make tons about your brand and everything and then say nothing. What, you put everything on. On. You can't dilute it. If you've got something really important about your brand that people need to know, it's got to be on every page. Yeah, okay. You see, because your customer, he's not going to have all your products. You see, if you have ten products, people don't have the time. What you have to remember, and this is also a key point, is that people aren't going to look at fifty pages of your site, and as they arrive on a category page, for example, what we notice is that if they're really interested, they'll look at two or three products. maybe you've got the product they're looking for, but they haven't found it for them, which means you don't have the product they're looking for, so they don't go looking much further, unless you're really into sauce, where people scroll and so on, you see, but they don't scroll, they don't really look at the product sheets, you see. They check, they check the photos, but they don't always go back to the product sheets. So you say to yourself, if my customer sees my product sheet, he's got information, or at least he lacks information to make a decision, so he won't buy. You see, it's crystal clear. Once again, try to buy an apartment if the guy arrives and doesn't tell you the price per square meter, if there have been problems with the condominium, and so on, you're not going to buy it right away in any case. You see. And then you're going to have to pay again to get it back, whatever. So that's really very important. It's to say to yourself, very good, very good exercise. This famous table on GA four of landing page, you take the first ten, you say to yourself okay, if I'm only on this page, can I buy I have all the info I need to buy your win, take me and buy what. If not, there's work to be done. Ok, that's great, and as far as landing pages go, I know you're a big proponent of AB testing. Do you have just a few methods you see on AB test, a little how to do them. So there are two subjects. There's pure website AB testing, you see, which can be quite broad, structure AB testing, option AB testing, and so on. So this is really about website traffic, you see. So we're doing a lot of it, you see, for example with Sport Découverte, we're in the process of, we've got an AB test roadmap that focuses only on the shopping cart, only on the funnel, because we're losing too many people there. We need to look for uplift, and so we've come to test structures, arguments, and so on, to boost the conversion rate. So that's really AB website testing, you see, and then on the landing page side, we'll create landing pages mainly for ads. You see, as soon as you start spending money, people often tell me how I should I know I should have landing pages. It's simple, in relation to the discussion we had earlier on levels of awareness, that when you start out with a tiny budget of three thousand euros a month, you're only going to reach people who are aware and ready to buy and so on. So logically, if your product sheets are well done, they'll work. You see, there's no subject for that. On the other hand, as soon as you start spending bigger budgets, you see ten cases a month, twenty cases a month, and so on, you know you're going to expand a little. That's when you have to create landing pages with value propositions that are a little different, a little specific. An example I often give is the gym. I had a case with a customer who has several gyms. He's got the bodybuilder, the girl who wants to take care of herself, be a bit sporty, you know, sheathed, fed, et cetera. And then there's the grandmother or grandfather father who comes in the morning to do a bit of exercise if he's only got one product sheet he's unable to talk to everyone in a coherent way you see either he'll dilute it or nobody will recognize himself etc. It's the famous if you try to talk to everyone you'll talk to nobody and that's a bit of it and well your landing page will enable you on the other hand to target the bodybuilder you're going to talk to him you're going to tell him that you've got weights going up to fifty kilos the girl who comes in or the grandmother, you're going to tell her that there are weights that start at one kilo, you see, but it's not the same thing. So the landing page will allow you to do just that. And once you've created your landing pages for grandma, for example, you'll be able to come and test AB. Does she want to come on her own for an hour or so Does she want to come with a coach Does she want to have, I don't know, some support Does she want to understand what she doesn't want to understand Does she want, well you know what I mean Does she want to understand what she doesn't want to understand Does she want, well there are lots of things you're going to hate her for. And to do that, I often recommend special tools for landing pages, because it's pretty easy to do. You see, there are tools like bounds, like others, but for us, it's a tool we use a lot and you can actually create variants of your pages by modifying, by modifying, I don't know the photo, by putting the reviews in such and such a place, by putting a slightly different value proposition, and so on. And that's the big difference. Okay. You see, today, with landing pages, as I was saying, sprint plus thirty-four percent conversion. We did a Nathalie, we did a matcha landing page. Well, we did an AB test between her ad, well her matcha product sheet and a landing page. How matcha can replace coffee, we did over seventy-two percent conversion. It's gigantic. Yeah, I get it. You see, it's gigantic. And you'll never be able to do that on a product sheet. On the other hand, you can go back and modify your product sheet a bit, and say, here's the learning I got about coffee, which is really interesting and seems to be reaching people, I'm going to put it on my product sheet, because it could become a real argument. You see, but you tested it first on the landing page. So you've got a truly personalized buying path, potentially with a product sheet that's different depending on which landing page you go through. It's possible or It's possible, but you do have a war machine. It's possible, and you need to be, you know, a huge guide with a lot of. Me, me, the idea, you see, and what I always tell my customers, when you're into optimization, you're not into adding costs that are too high for, you know, managing the website. If you start having twenty-five product sheets, even in terms of logistics and so on, it's complicated. It's like hell on earth. So no, that's why landing pages are so interesting, because in the end, they'll let you create product sheets ad infinitum, you see, because you'll be able to test lots of things, and so on. And with the best learning, you'll be able to improve your classic product sheets. Don't forget that lots of people will come to your site because they've typed in your brand name, or because a friend sent them a link, or because they've seen you on the web. In short, there are all kinds of reasons why people come across classic product sheets. And so your classic product sheet has to do the job all the same. Grandma can type in basic feat on Google and come up with the basic feat sheet, but she won't always come across the landing page. So that's why, you see, it's important to have both, to work both. Basically, when you're not making a hundred thousand euros a month, focus one hundred percent on your product sheets. When you're making more, then you can start making landing pages, and all that. You can't go too fast. Yeah, that's it, yeah, block by block, and not too much life either. What I often tell brands is that when you're making between zero and a hundred thousand euros, you have to keep that in mind. When you're making between zero and a hundred thousand euros, concentrate on your site, your offer, your price, all that. When you're making between a hundred thousand and a million euros, focus on your landing pages. Because it's a big gap, you see, between a hundred thousand and a million euros, and you're obliged to go and get news from new cohorts of customers. And when you're doing over a million euros in sales a month, then you can start making real AB test road maps on your website, because you'll have traffic, because you'll have learning, because you'll have all that. But in fact, don't try to make big AB test road maps. Then you make forty thousand euros a month. But in fact, you're wasting your time. So why don't you do a test and say, well, what's my price? We had tested the price of one of his products, or basically, he was selling it. If I'm not mistaken, it was something like one hundred and thirty-nine euros. We tested it at one hundred and forty-nine, one hundred and fifty-nine and in fact, we realized that at one hundred and forty-nine euros, he was still converting it just as much. So you gain ten euros per product without losing conversion or anything else, so that's really interesting. And as you can see, it can be interesting at first. But already, they're generating a bit of traffic and all that, you know. So it's always, it's always, he still had a bit of traffic, so it was still interesting, but he wasn't making billions either. So yeah, these three steps already, you see, if you concentrate once again from zero to a hundred thousand euros, concentrate on your customers, concentrate on your offer, on how to present your offer, on the arguments, on all that. If you don't make it to a hundred thousand, you won't make it to a million. So you see what I mean, it's really the steps. And once you've passed your hundred-thousand, your landing pages, you're going to put more budget into your acquisition. So you're going to have to make landing pages once you see. Yeah, and make sure you don't burn your wings. And do everything and end up with nothing to do. That's for sure. I can't imagine wanting to talk to everyone right away, but first concentrating on what you understand. A mini-target, that's what you know. A mini-target. Yeah. Because in fact, what's going to make the difference is that, in the beginning, you can really talk to a very close target who'll understand you, who'll buy quickly and who'll enable you to be as profitable as possible, as quickly as possible. Because in the beginning, you don't have a very high unlimited, you see. So that's the objective, to really reach people who are ready to take out their wallet right away. Sometimes that's a pretty big target, sometimes it's pretty small. But as soon as you've found that target, you say to yourself, okay, who's my next target, who's my next target, who's my next target, is my offer still coherent, is it? And at the beginning, and at the beginning, that's all it was, you know. And today, with social networks, with all that, you still have a way of finding a target, of making yourself known, you know. I was watching a video on TikTok yesterday of a guy who does, you know the, what's it called, not garage sales, but you know, who buys pallets of stuff, who buys pallets of stuff and resells them, you know, but he doesn't really know, he doesn't buy them from Amazon, the returns, the stuff. What it's called. Anyway, and the guy, he was explaining, he was explaining. I had a local in I don't know which town who paid three thousand euros. He said, I bought a container and put it in my backyard. I bought two phones to do TikTok lives. I spend all day doing live TikTok and I've exploded my sales. You see And he says, the mother in his town, she told him, yeah, come back and do it in the local, I'll give you a year, he said never in a million years. I'm staying in my in my in my in my thing because, in fact, with TikTok, with Insta, with whatever, there are ways of doing things that you couldn't do before, you know, that cost a lot more, you know. And these guys, they're a hit. I had a prospect who came in last year where, basically, his mother had launched TikTok during the Covid, who used to do the markets with fashion products. You know, of lesser quality, stuff like that, but he comes to me and says we're doing 6 million euros in sales. Fuck, yeah. We've never done ads, we only do natural TikTok. Okay, I told him, “What's Continue? Like don't bother, I don't know what, just keep going. Like, it's just shit, I don't know, but because it's actually possible, you know, not everyone has to have a real product, you have to have a facility, you have to do something, and it's possible, you know. Yeah, yeah, I think so too, you know, for example Laurine from Label Book who we've been working with for a while now and who's really created her own brand that's been all over the place organically for a very, very long time already, and who managed to reach a good level of turnover before starting to have a Shopify, real stuff. So yeah, it's true that the opportunity we have today is gigantic. And it allows you to understand who your customers are. You see the comments, you see the questions, you see the tips, the feedback, maybe you'll get some negative opinions at first, but turn them into strengths, you see, and that's what's important. I had a, I had an internship in a company and the guy, he told me your bad customer today must become your best customer. Why? Because the bad customer who comes to tell you this has a particular emotion with your product or with you. Because if he doesn't care, you see, we've all bought products, been disappointed, never said anything, never bought the brand back. When you take the time to send an e-mail, to complain, and so on, it's like, you know, there's a particular emotion either because it's cost you a lot of money and you don't want to let something happen to you, or because you had a strong expectation of the product, in any case there was something there and so if you show this person ok like it's true we made a mistake we've got something we're going to find a solution together and you find a solution, often that person becomes your best customer. And frankly, I heard him say that very quickly, and with time, I've come to realize that he was probably right. So you shouldn't be afraid of that. You just have to be honest, tell people that you've made a mistake, that you've done something stupid, but that you're ready to find solutions, and it all works out in the end. So today, frankly, when you start out, just do it. You see, that's all you do. That's all I did at the beginning for over a year, and all I did was LinkedIn. Yeah, today that's what got Osse Ambert off the ground Yes, I guess it did. I would have launched it a year ago. I wouldn't have, I would have struggled, people, but really, they wouldn't have particularly trusted me, et cetera. It's been a year, a year and a half, it's been a year and a half basically, I've been really into LinkedIn, but you see, it's recent. Finally, a year and a half and in a year, I must have made, I don't know, two hundred and fifty posts, you know. And in the end, people, they invite you, they think about you, they talk about you, you find customers, you stuff, et cetera. And I'm no genius. You know what I mean. It's true that it's a good opportunity all the same. You just have to, yeah, you have to be resilient and Like everything. Being, there's no secret to it. That's what I always say when people tell me, what are your accounts, what are your tips for entrepreneurship? It's to get started and persevere. You see, that's all there is to it, because there are plenty of people who get started and give up because they think it's not going fast enough, and so on. But in fact, it doesn't go fast. You see, it's very, very rare to find three hundred customers in the first month, you see. But if you're resilient and you stick with it, it always works out in the end. Will you make billions or will you just make hundreds of thousands That, I can't tell you, but you'll end up being able to feed yourself every month and pay your team if you want us to find you. Yeah, that's true, that's true. So, you see, this will lead to the question that will bring the episode to a close. What would be some advice for a brand that's just starting out, apart from the one you've just given, and a question for a brand that's more like the one you described earlier, which is more the scale stage, you know, you really want to go from ten to a hundred million euros in sales, I don't know. These are two totally different approaches. It's got nothing to do with it. First of all, they don't have the same teams, they don't have the same resources, they don't have the same budgets. So you can't, you can't compare. Frankly, not to repeat myself too much, but for small companies, it's really just focus on the offer, on the offer, on the offer, you know. Like, that's the only thing that counts, that's the only thing that's going to make you, at some point, find your audience, make people appreciate your product, make it a pleasure to buy your product, and so on. That's really the only advice I can give. My advice to anyone who wants to go from ten million to a hundred million is to call me. Because I'm interested. I think we're going to have some stuff to do and test because because Zero 6. Yeah, right. I made a video about it, but I had done, I think, going from five hundred thousand to ten million, but from ten million to a hundred million, that's it there's quite a lot to do. And often, from ten million to one hundred million, there's a real, there's a real widening of the range. It's very, very rare to keep the same range from ten to a hundred million, you see. There's often real work done on the product, on the range, and so on. But then there are all these acquisition channels to set up. You see, I don't do the acquisition as such, but all the conversion of this acquisition. And there are a lot of things to do, you know, like, we're having fun with it today, you know. Exactly, retention is also the key to being able to because, in fact, when you manage to convert someone well, it's much easier to keep them for a long time, you know, and to get them to, you know, because if you manage to convert well, if you've got the right person, and so if tomorrow you tell them to, you know, you're asking them to, you know, to share on the networks, to create content, to do a UGC, they'll be much more inclined. For me, there are brands for whom, if I were asked to make UGC, I might have done it. And there are plenty of others for whom I wouldn't do it. Because I didn't buy them, because I didn't want to please someone, or I don't know. But you see, there are some, has a level of commitment to certain purchases and not others. And so the better you convert, the more it means that people are really interested in your product, the easier it will be to keep them for longer. So that's why it's still, it's really the key, the key, the key, it's not using crappy hacks, hiding stuff, no, that doesn't work in the long term, you see. That's what dropshippers do, you see, and when you want to go up, it's why not, you see, except that they know their business is going to last 6 months, a year, and in a year they'll launch something else. It's a different mentality, you see, if you really want to build. You see, I don't have any moral judgement on that. If, on the other hand, you want to build a long-term brand with real branding and so on, don't do that. You see, make sure you convert because people want to buy your product and that changes everything. Yeah. You know, I think that's a great last sentence. That's nice. It's been cool listening we've covered a lot of ground and I'm really happy I think the you know the episode was maybe even better than last time. But no, it's cool, you know, I think it gives a lot of real insight to merchants who listen to us, whatever their size, to help them understand benchmarks, what to analyze in their buying journey, and what to focus on, depending on their stage of development. So I'm very happy. Thanks again for coming. Thank you very much. I'll see you next time for Yes, and don't hesitate to write to me on LinkedIn. I try to answer everyone, but it's not always as quick as people would like. I've had people say, yeah, I wrote you three days ago. Sorry, I don't know if that's going to do it. But in any case, I try to answer everyone. And then, and then, if you want to go and see the method too towards with pleasure. On LinkedIn, on Sébastien Tortue actually. On YouTube too. I'm trying, I'm trying and on the small size too. I don't have a podcast yet, but on YouTube, I try and try. I need strength. That's also little by little. Same thing, resilience. It takes time. But no, really, you're sharing lots of hyper, hyper useful content. So frankly, go check out everything he's doing on LinkedIn and YouTube. Thank you very much. And see you next time for a third episode. With great pleasure. See you soon. Thank you for listening to this episode of Loyoly talks all the way through. I hope you've enjoyed it and found plenty of tips to try out for your brand. If so, subscribe so you don't miss the next one. Spread the word and leave us a five-star rating on the Apple podcast, it helps us a lot. Finally, if you need to increase your LTV, don't hesitate to contact me on LinkedIn or on our dot I o website. See you soon.