Rethink your checkout (with Jérémy from JUST)

There's a problem with check-out. It's not for nothing that in the market, here's a conversion rate that's three percent on average on mobile, we're below one percent and and and massive attrition in the check out. A merchant calls seventy percent of its consumers check out. Hello, you're listening to Loadd'élite talk, the podcast that's all about e-commerce. Once a month, I host an inspirational figure from the French e-commerce ecosystem for a friendly, unpretentious discussion on the subjects they're passionate about. The aim is to decipher e-commerce trends and share practical tips for making your e-shop a success. I'm Joseph Aubry, co-founder of Loyoly, the loyalty and sponsorship platform that lets you engage your customers through over fifty different mechanisms. Share user content with customers and much more to increase your LTV and reduce your cac. If you like Loyoly talks, subscribe and feel free to leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to support us. Good listening. Nice to welcome you Jérémy, very happy to have this conversation together. Thank you Joseph for inviting me. My pleasure. Nice to see you today. We're going to talk payment, we're going to talk conversion, we're going to talk e-commerce in general. The aim, as you know, is simply to help as many merchants of all sizes who listen to us as possible, to have things that can be activated that they can then potentially apply straight away, and these things that can be activated can also include setting up Just. We'll talk about that in detail. If you'd like to start by introducing yourself, perhaps for those who don't know you yet. Yes, of course, Jérémy Pinto, we're more co-founders of Just. Just is a company I set up a little over two years ago with my long-time friend Benjamin. Partenan crime. I've known him since I was three. Ok. We're childhood friends, we did everything together, kindergarten, primary school, secondary school, high school, we were both teenagers together, ESEC too, and we'd both wanted to set up this company for a very, very long time. So we both started out in mergers and acquisitions, Benjamin Cher Rothschild and me at b s. Then we felt our pensions had arrived. We wanted to build something big that would bring value to both consumers and merchants. And that's how we came to create Just, based on a simple observation: on the one hand, we're the generation that can do everything in a few seconds, order Uber, order Deliveroo during the Covid, because it was at the end of the Covid that we launched Just. You could book your vaccine appointment in two clicks on the Covid. In short, we were immersed in a digital environment that allowed us to do things quite simply. In fact, there's one thing we can't do with just one click, and that's buy online, except on one site, Amazon, you guessed it. Amazon is well thought-out, or at least Jeff Bezos has thought a lot about it. In ninety-seven, he brought out the What's click checkout, he patented it, My patent lasted twenty years, that's the rules. The patent lasted twenty years, iTunes used to pay to license the white checkout on iTunes, and so the patent fell into disuse. Today, Amazon still uses web checkout. Amazon, after all, is the site that. What is Amazon? No, it's possible. Amazon was a small site that sold books on the Internet. They also, they got rockets in space. That's it. They're a bit diversified. And yeah, actually, you can ask yourself who Amazon is. Yes, there's a huge product catalog. You can buy just about anything and everything. But you also have a perfectly immersed buying path. Today, 1-click checkout, although it has fallen into the public domain, is a technology that is still used by Amazon, by forty percent of Amazon users, thirty-eight percent to be exact. It's evolved a little. The technology has evolved a little, it's not on mobile, you've got the swipe because you're more on a notion of clicks. But nevertheless, you can also say to yourself, okay, you've got the biggest site in the world, which does fifty percent of the world's volume, which still uses a check-up techno to fluidify its sales. Amazon has a 15% conversion rate, and we'll come back to that later. So it was from this observation that we decided to launch the project. We also made the observation that e-commerce is broken. In fact, if you look at the growth figures, e-commerce is no longer growing as it did a few years ago. In fact, it's no longer growing, because when you look at the evolution of growth in Western countries - Europe, the United States, China - you realize that there's a real gap between what technology is capable of bringing us, on the one hand, and what online experiences are really capable of offering us, on the other. And in fact, in China, they've managed to continually innovate on the platform to maintain a level of trade growth and penetration on total sales, not of twelve percent as in France, percent as it is in the global market, but of fifty percent. The market is fifty percent. So, on the one hand, you've got e-commerce no longer growing, and on the other, you've got a ton of room for innovation to pull in and accelerate the JDP of commerce. That's what you're doing with Loyoly, and that's what all the companies serving the interests of e-tailers and consumers are doing today. In other words, we all want to accelerate the GDP of e-commerce. And we're convinced of one thing, and that's that to drive this e-commerce GDP, we need to serve the new aspirations of the new generation of consumers arriving on the market. And this new generation arriving on the market wants simple, smart, personalized, social and interactive. Why do I say social? Because shopping, by definition, is a social activity. You go shopping at the weekend, you do it with friends, in fact you can indulge yourself from time to time on your own, but overall it's a social experience. And I'd like to come back to what I said earlier about China. In China, they've succeeded in accelerating the growth of commerce because they've been able to replicate in a much simpler, smarter and more social way an experience they were already having in the physical world, thanks to technology. A player like Ping Godo, who's a big hit in China and who we want to emulate. Yeah. Do you think there's also a difference in terms of culture? Their logic, their software, is a little more mutualized. Typically, they mutualize everything on an app called WeChat, where I think you can do almost anything, you can pay. Do you think this is also a cultural gap that explains why there's more penetration of the e-commerce market? Of course, I've lived in China. Ok. Five years ago. Where were you, Shanghai? Ok. A few months. I lived in China, I used WeChat which is amazing. There are others too, there are others that are used by Chinese consumers. The cultural gap comes from several things. First of all, contrary to what you might think, the Chinese are much more digitalized than Westerners. You can go into any Chinese countryside, and I've found it quite easy, because of the mobile coverage, the coverage, they're all equipped with a smartphone, because in fact they haven't experienced what we experienced, our parents potentially experienced twenty, thirty years ago, in other words, I'm discovering what it is to have a phone that isn't a smartphone. I'll explain if you're interested how we see the evolution of e-commerce in this way, but here you have a subject of ok they really grew up with the mobile and digital and everything was done via the mobile. They didn't go from the computer to the mobile. Whereas in Western culture, in the way we've created e-commerce, we've reproduced, we've taken over the codes of the, so we've taken over the codes of the physical to make an online experience on desktop and we've taken over the codes of the desktop to make the desktop screen fit on a small screen. In fact, that's not how they conceived e-commerce. Yes, skipping a step skipping a step. It's a step. That's why, generally speaking, in Chinese e-commerce, you have a thin cover. Mobile is much more prominent than desktop. And you have mobile sales that are much more, shall we say, significant than those we have today. Okay. There really is this habit of using the app and Wechat, it's ten years ago you could, ten fifteen years ago you could already pay WeChat to take a metro ticket what. Valérie Pécresse has announced that you can pay with another. We're only ten years behind on that. Yeah, that's fine. Ten years late, that's fine. So we've got a lot of things going for us, and we're very much inspired by what's happening in Asia. Yes, there's a cultural gap, and live shopping may not work as well as it does there. But things are happening. And what's happening is the innovation in customer day. In Europe, in the West, let's say, I include the Western world, we have a customer base that is much more fragmented, segmented with the different phases that you know, Discovery, Warner, et cetera, et cetera, to get to the point of paying at the end of the buying journey. The value chain, the chain of Chinese commerce, is much more like, you can you can you can pay at any stage of the window. Okay. Admittedly, I've never bought from a Chinese site. But you can pay anywhere in the world. We're convinced, and I think that's a little bit what we're doing at Jess, that thirty years ago, a player called PayPal arrived on the market where e-commerce wasn't, or at least was concentrated on two three players Amazon, eBay and two other PayPal, PayPal, Amazon and two three other players with a problem that was, we want to make payments secure. Now, PayPal has been around for thirty years, more or less. Today, there's another challenge, and that's to serve the new generation of consumers arriving on the market, who, as I was saying, want smart, personalized and social services in an increasingly omnichannel e-commerce environment. We're no longer going to pit lighter and mustard against VVS e-commerce, an e-commerce that's a business, sorry, that's three hundred and sixty, you're going to be able to buy in your store, you're going to be able to buy on your site, you're going to be able to buy directly from social networks, you're going to be able to buy from a QR code or from a check out, you're even going to be able to reinvent the experience tomorrow in a soccer stadium of your Kylian Mbappé who scores at the euro rather than going to queue at half-time to go and buy your Mbappé team. You've got ten minutes to buy your core and you've got almost everyone who wants to buy it, there's a Kylian Mbappé goal, you've got your check-out link on your seat, you're going to be able to buy it, delivered home forty-eight hours later. Purchasing moments are going to be more and more present, and we're not just going to be at the end of the purchasing journey on a page offering forty methods of payment to buy. In the presentation of Just Asu, we're reinventing the customer today, making shopping simple, smart and social. And our ambition is to become the next PayPal and serve a whole generation of thirty-something buyers. Listen to this magnificent presentation, and what was it that gave you the idea of doing Just? What was it that got you going at that moment, when you said to yourself, okay, there's something to do, let's go, let's do it, and you got Benjamin on board, and off you went. It's really about opportunity, and you know it, and I think it's true for all entrepreneurs, to find your partner, to find the person you want to work with for years to come. As for me, it was Benjamin, and it's been Ovious for quite a long time. Nevertheless, it's not easy to work with friends and that's something we're often asked, isn't it too hard to de de de de your friend. Yes, I think there are advantages and disadvantages. We manage to raise each other up, to divide the roles well, it almost works on top of that and finally the most important question, it wasn't necessarily fair, it was do we want to work together Yeah clearly. And do we want to create value together? We wanted to create value together, and we also wanted to create value in order to do something that would change people's lives. That was important to us. To change the status quo of this totally shattered ground forward. And create a fucking adventure. That's what drives us, it's creating this human adventure, creating a company, that's what makes us proud, I think somewhere down the line, or will make us proud in a few years' time, and that's what we fight for every day. Yeah, definitely. Yes, of course, it speaks to me a lot because with Thomas, my colloquium buddy, we launched Loyoly, so we've got a bit of the same configuration of working with a buddy. Listen to me, frankly, it's going really well, so I'm really happy about that, but yeah, I can understand that sometimes it can raise questions, at least for those who haven't experienced it, and so to understand a little bit, yeah, in China, you typically saw things like Just that already existed, or like how you came up with the idea of really creating this experience. You really got away from Amazon or Yeah, we weren't necessarily inspired because there was already something in China. In China, you have other payment methods that allow you to check out quickly. Our starting point was to democratize the Amazon check-out technology for all e-commerce sites, and to ensure that consumers, regardless of the website, can buy on sale, even if they haven't created an account, if they haven't already purchased on that account. That's possible at the outset. Today, as I was saying, it's all about creating a shopping experience that meets the aspirations of this generation of consumers. When I say purchase, I also include what happens post-purchase, because one of the reasons why you go to buy on Amazon is not just to check out, it's because you know that afterwards, it's easy to return a product, it's easy to get your money back, it's easy to leave reviews and generally speaking, we want to reconstitute a customer diary for all e-commerce sites in a business, well in a business that is increasingly decentralized, that will adapt not to creating an experience that works only on one site, on one channel, but to creating an experience that works on all sites, on all channels. Can you explain to us in concrete terms, if I'm a customer, how my one-click shopping experience works? So today Just, in terms of products, what's available today is a button that goes on product pages, shopping cart pages, that can also be positioned on networks, well on social networks, so in story, in DM, email, it's really a purchase button that allows consumers not to have to create an account, not to go through a long check-out form, a long purchase form that often takes four pages, a loading time between pages. There are more than twenty-three fields to fill in on average, but there have been improvements in this area. But it's still a boring experience. There's scrolling on mobile. Connectivity is not always excellent. It's not for nothing that you've got a conversion rate on the market that's three percent on average on mobile, but we're down to less than one percent, and there's a massive loss in the check-out, a merchant loses seventy percent of its consumers in the check-out. In other words, the consumer has an intention to buy and doesn't convert us. This is the question we ask ourselves every day at Just and in our analytics work. Really, we analyze the conversion phenomenon every day. To answer your question about what we actually do for the consumer, we're anti account creation. We're not going to ask them to keep their accounts secret. What will happen is that the first time they see the Just experience and the Just button, they'll have to enter this information for the first time. So, Joseph, Joseph arobase faire. Lio. J'habite voilà cinquante-deux, boulevard Voltaire. I want to be delivered in petites et Colette, et caetera. I press, I have, I have. First purchase, from the very first purchase, we have an experience that is much more effective than most, well, than all the check-outs on the market, since we improve the conversion rate even on a first purchase. And then, when the consumer sees the Just button again, not only on the same site, but also on all the sites in the Just network, he'll just press buy with one click and a meeting page for security, and it's ordered. In fact, it works a bit like your Gmail inbox. In fact, we're a kind of single signant for commerce. That is, Joseph, I know I'm using this device, this net-computer, and I log you in automatically. Okay. But if tomorrow you've made your first purchase on a computer and you go to your iPhone, I don't know you, I don't know if the iPhone belongs to you. So you're going to start with an empty form, you're going to show me your email address and I'm going to recognize you. I'm going to open a 0TP, a text message. An SMS, a 6-digit code and then I'll be able to fill in all the information. Then I'll make the connection, okay Joseph, he's got this device, this iPhone, and if you ever buy on another device, we'll do the same thing. So from potentially the third time you buy, you really only have to click a button. Even the second time today. Okay. So if, for example, you buy once on your desktop, once on your iPhone, but basically in the worst case scenario, if you have two devices, potentially from the second or third purchase, you click on a button and it's done. So that's really powerful. Very, very powerful. And it helps to improve conversion by about how many percent Today, we're, we deliver conversion and sales tools, because we're not having any impact. We don't have a negative impact on the average basket of ten to fifteen percent. This is something we're going to monitor with AB testing. It's the only way to know if a solution brings conversion. I know that there are a lot of boxes that convert, and I often say this when I'm out walking. The best way to really know conversion is not to do a before-and-after. That doesn't work. There are the same parameters on your conversion that won't work. You can do it scientifically, pragmatically, you have to do an AB test on a statistically significant number of sessions. We didn't do it at first, to be completely transparent. We've been using this approach for about eight months now. So I said ten to fifteen percent, that's an average. We go from seven percent to over twenty percent for some. Yeah, you've got different scenarios, I guess. Which, there you go, actually. It's huge. You do the math on your conversion versus a direct number. And we, well, I don't know if it's because we've done a bit of finance before with twenty months, but we have an approach that's pretty business-like and and and and and that once we've done this AB Tesla with our merchants, we transpose the results of this ce ce, the results of this AB tests onto a synthetic NLP. We're not going to go into all the details, we're going to make a synthetic NLP in which we'll show him, here's ten percent conversion, that's ten percent more sales. Yeah, you take away the margin, the gross margin and then I just ignored your PayPal shares by twenty-five percent. So really when I say we want to become PayPal, start replacing PayPal already. PayPal is super-expensive and not necessarily the most Liuframely solution, and then you finally get down to the bottom of the NLP, profitability increments, weapon bits of the same order. That's very strong because the economic context we're in with acquisition costs that have risen, which is seen the latest study by Content Square, but which basically explains, one visit out of two-thousand-twenty-three, the cost of a visit has risen by nine percent yes. Yeah, so that's huge. You're in a, you're in a phase where most companies are looking for profitability, acquisition costs have exploded. It's clear that if you want to grow, you have to ask yourself the question: “Am I still investing money in acquisition? You have to invest money in acquisition. It has to be invested intelligently, and there has to be some return, some noise. So what we're saying is, for the same ads budget, you're going to convert 6 to 15% more. This has a huge impact on both sales and profitability. That's really today's value proposition. Ok too cool. Very, very interesting, and yeah, that's kind of why we get up every morning. As you said, there was a lot of investment at the top of the funnel for a while, it was a bit like the good old days, and we're actually seeing more and more investment moving towards the bottom of the funnel, particularly in conversion, retention and recommendation, because the cac is so high, merchants need to improve their cac and if they want to continue to be competitive when their meta bids are super high, they need to have a very high LTV in particular and also better conversion to play on this LTV K ratio so we're helping a little funnel box investment is two-thousand-twenty-four two-thousand-twenty-six and the next few years. Yeah, I agree, now that's what we're seeing more and more, so it's really cool. It's compatible with all platforms Just Oui. Ok. The goal was obviously to be compatible with all platforms, because Just's objective is to serve the entire e-commerce market. We started Just on the most active platforms on the market, Shopify and Prestashop. We'll soon be working on integration with Magento and Salesforce, before tackling the development of custom modules. Okay, cool, and yeah, so it's a big logical step over the next few months, and I think you're also going a bit international, can you tell us a bit about that? Just is a global company. We were lucky enough to start up in France, we're French. We have an incredible ecosystem in France, whether it's the State, the schools, or e-commerce in general, which is, I think you'll agree with me, made up of superb people, really fine people in terms of human values, et cetera. We started out in France, and now we're looking to accelerate our international development in the UK market, which is three times bigger than the French market. It's a two-hundred-billion-billion market where in France you're at, sorry, two-hundred billion where in France we're at seventy billion. You would have loved it, you would have loved it. I would have loved it. Soon. It's a two hundred billion market, which means c to c e-commerce, which means a lot more opportunities. It's also an important step for us to show that we're capable of going out and serving international merchants and consumers in other markets. We're already international, since our consumers come from all over the world. We even have French merchants of course. Who already sell in the UK or elsewhere. We already have a few references in England, I know that's a case too, but yeah, there's a real desire to speed things up there. Ok, great, great steps ahead for the years to come. Listen, I'd like to change the subject a little, a subject that's actually related, but I saw that you'd published a list of e-commerce experts on your site. Yeah, we launched the e-commerce experts community, which actually brings together talented freelance experts who work with e-tailers on a daily basis, who don't necessarily get the visibility they deserve, but who do some pretty important and valuable work. And the idea came from the fact that we had quite a few of our customers asking us, don't you know someone who already had me in SEO, don't you know someone who wants to help me make your site. In fact, and you must see this too, since you have over two hundred merchants. It's not easy to get to know each merchant's team and introduce the right freelancer to the right person at the right time. As the founder, you're not everyone, you have two hundred customers, but you don't know everyone's teams. So we wanted to put the spotlight on the freelancers who worked with our customers, even those who weren't already working. In fact, every time an e-merchant has a need, there's a tab in Dashboard, Just, merchant competition, find a freelancer, linked to the list of all freelancers by theme SE0, analytics, data, CRMSEI. In short, it's pretty exhaustive. We encourage freelancers to sign up for the free listing and e-commerce. And every week or two, we announce on LinkedIn that such and such a conference has joined the community. It's also a way of federating the ecosystem. Soon, we'll also be organizing an evening with all these e-commerce experts to go and meet them in person. It's something we really like to do at Just, to try and meet as many of our customers and partners as possible, and we really enjoy doing it. That's great, and yeah, it's also available on your site, I think. So we can check it out if we want to see the list. I can totally check out all the e-commerce experts. So cool. We've talked a bit about conversion in terms of check-out. I imagine it's a subject you dig into quite a lot in general, so conversion beyond check-out, beyond Just, do you have any other advice? We've talked about it quite a bit on the podcast with Sébastien, who was on recently too, and Loïc, who's also a free web expert, but I'd be quite curious to know your best practices for optimizing the end of the purchase path in general, if you have any. Yeah, very good question. Sébastien and Thomas are much better experts than I am. Really, I'm not an expert. We'll put a disclaimer on it, don't worry. First of all, conversion is obviously the crux of the matter for all merchants, and individual solutions aren't magic wands. You can't expect me to put in this solution and triple my sales. You need a much more global approach. In other words, conversion is the combination of what I have in my pricing, do I have a good, do I have the right payment methods, do the consumers I'm addressing, let's say they're in Belgium and I don't offer the right contact, in fact it's normal that you don't convert because you don't offer the method that's used by most Belgians. So there's a problem somewhere. So first of all, you need to have a global approach to conversion. Then, the advice I have to give is obviously to be hyper exhaustive in the in the tests, the AB tests that you brands carry out with the different solutions. In fact, you've got to have a, I test, test approach all the time. On the other hand, sometimes with English or American brands, in fact, they're constantly in this approach of ok, we propose a solution, I test it. A solution, I test it. They're able to make quick decisions on whether or not to improve the product. And in fact, it's not a big deal if brand a works and brand b doesn't. You just have to know what works and what doesn't. That's all. It's just a question of knowing what works for me. So my first piece of advice is to test as many solutions as possible as quickly as possible. You can get results, or at least the AB tests you set up can get results on whether or not it leads to conversion. The second point I'd like to make, the second piece of advice I'd like to give, is to invest in check-out trust. Basically, we tend to push reviews on product pages in particular, or in pre-cart follow-ups, or in five-star communications on this product. Here's a testimonial from Barbara who tested this brand, this cosmetic product. It's great. But in fact, as long as there's a risk, as long as you haven't closed the deal, we'll see it that way. As long as you haven't closed the consumer, you still have to remind him of the benefits of the product. You still have to push the real facts. One of the proofs is that, as you said, seventy percent of consumers leave the checkout. And there's a brand called Sync that you might know about, that does it. No, I don't. Who does what Sync is a brand that sells Ah Sync protein, yes sorry so much for me. Sync in fact in their basket you'll see there are reviews. Ok. It's one of the few brands that still insists on reviews in the basket at check-out. You've also highlighted your return policy. In France today, only one percent of consumers read the return policy. But the return policy is a conversion lever. Exactly. When it comes to e-commerce highlights, I'm going to take, I don't know, sales, fresh days and Christmas. What you generally see is an extension of return policies when, in fact, if you don't like the product, you don't have just one week to return it, you're offered a bit of flexibility. But if you don't put this forward at check-out time, you can be sure that your customers will probably skip it. But this is a conversion lever. So, if you're able to call back at checkout, you can return your products three weeks after you've bought them. That's an extra conversion leverage. In fact, you really have to see the, we actually, it's also a philosophy that we buy right out of the box, it's the power of small step. Okay, with the accent. Yeah, that was very good. All right, thanks. Every hundredth is worth it. Every improvement is worth earning. And so you have to emphasize your return policy, it's potentially a hundredth, potentially a sixth more conversion. If you apply this to a brand with sales of one hundred thousand euros, or one million one hundred million euros, it doesn't have the same impact. Another piece of advice I'd like to give is to include a message, for example. Sorry. Another piece of advice I'd like to give is potentially to highlight two or three branding elements on the actions taken by the brand, particularly on the eco-responsible part if there is one, or on another element of reassurance. In the same way, I don't want to do any greenwashing. In any case, it's not my job. I mean, I'm not a retailer. But if, for example, a brand donates ten percent to, I don't know, replanting trees, that's always a good thing to put in the checkout. You shouldn't give too much information either. But if these are the reasons why consumers buy from you, excuse me for saying “from you”, but insist on this, insist on the reasons why wipes from you. Yeah, and C'est renforcé son ADN de marque finalement, mais au moins au niveau du check-out encore. Yeah, you know, I never see it, I never see things like that at check-out. It's true that it's still very transactional at the end of the day. Do the check-outs on existing platforms today allow you to do things like that natively? So you at Joy also have the ability to add elements of reassurance, to create a real check-out experience with content such as web stories. We don't do web stories. Okay, but anyway. We could, I know we're talking to Jonathan quite a bit, you could la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la do an integration together and it would be great for consumers and for merchants even if you also see it you have product road maps. We're all the same, we all want to integrate with others. Unfortunately, we've just learned how to walk, and we have to learn how to walk and run before we can integrate. But the idea would be great. We'll put it in the podcast title. You've got to learn to run before you fit in. It's really okay. But it's better. And yeah, actually Just, contrary to popular belief, it's not a payment method. For us, payment is transactional, as you said, it's a commodity today. The work we do, Paul Louis, is not going to be happy. No, he won't. But yeah, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. I know what you mean. I love this. The reason why a merchant is going to choose a PSP is to maximize their rate of three d s for You integrate with things like PayPal or at the time Or is it From a technical point of view. Yeah, technically speaking, when people pay through you, are you the payment service provider, or is there a It's like PayPal, in other words, we work with different payment service providers. To process the transaction. Like PayPal, or like a BNP player, a Clara, to process the transaction and, what's more, retrocede the balance to e-commerce. It's more or less the same thing. All right. Well, at Just pardon me, it's the same way. And so I said yeah, we're not a payment company. Yes, we are. We're partners with payment companies. And what we're really doing is going to capture purchase intent, we're going to capture purchase intent. Why do I say that? Because, in the end, the initial problem is that seventy percent of consumers give up in the checkout window at the bottom of the window. You have very pragmatic reasons, with a market study that comes out every year and values and data that are also shared by CMS, of here's where your consumers give up and here's why. It could be that my return policy wasn't clear enough, I had to create an account, the delivery methods weren't diversified enough, the site crashed, it could be that, you know, the cost of delivery was calculated at the end of the purchase process and in fact, damn, I've got ten euros more laziness. I'm sorry. In any case, there are plenty of pragmatic reasons. You know where the problem is and where you're losing customers. By the way, CMS offer Shopify, Prestashop and so on. They have an analytics tab where you can see where I've lost customers. So that's the pragmatic analysis. And you have the Just analysis, which is much more, based on a philosophy called the be heavy model. The be heavy model is a theory formalized by Brian Fogg, a Stanford professor who has published a number of books that are fairly widely used in Silicon Valley on what he calls persusive technology. He explains that psycho e-commerce conversion behavior is the combination of three psychological factors: one, motivation, two, simplicity and three, triggers. Let me explain. Okay. In fact, for a behavior to take place, for a conversion to take place, there needs to be a combination of three, of these three psychological factors. Motivation is managed by the brand itself. Its branding, pricing strategy, marketing and so on. Simplicity, that's ergonomics, that's him, that's the UI. That's also the reason why, over the last few years, you've seen an improvement in this area: it's easier to buy a book. And there's a third trigger factor that FOG describes as the missing piece of the puzzle. What is a trigger A trigger is something that increases the possibility of carrying out the behavior, i.e. the purchase. All the cognitive biases, for example, go into this. Behavioral biases. Right. Behavioral biases. And when you look at the biggest retailers in the world, I'll always take Amazon and I'll take Booking on another vertical, it's still an e-retailer that forms something else, but they not only have a check-up that's super optimized and they also have a set of marketing triggers that push the consumer to the plug. They're very, very good at that. So on Amazon, you're going to have buy withing tower and Oliver Tomorrow price. You're going to have, there are still five products available. You're going to get one thousand, four hundred and seventy-two reviews. Association. Authority and association, et cetera. You're going to have it delivered to this address. You say wow, it's delivered to my house as we used to say. Booking, it's the same logic. You go, you've already bought a room on Booking, a room in high demand, only two rooms left. In fact, you've got Fomo. Fomo. In fact, you realize that these retail giants have conversion rates of between ten and fifteen percent. That's because, yes, on the one hand, they have fairly simple, easy-to-use ergonomic check-outs, they observe information. That's one thing, but they've managed to create Fomo, to create marketing triggers. They're really applying the seal model to retail. In fact, Just is the first shopping experience to integrate these different types of triggers to accelerate website conversion rates. And so, we've developed a hundred or so technological connectors with the systems of, well, tools, logisticians, carriers, loyalty programs in the near future. I think we have an integration, but I don't think I was even aware of it. I wasn't aware. Yes, wait, if we're going to integrate soon. Yeah, I don't see why not. Come on, we've talked about it. Yeah, actually, that would be really, really cool. ERP, keyboard, big clip. We're interested in this concern, not because it's fun for us, but because it's not fun for you. It's fun for me too, it's not work, but what I mean by that is that it also allows us to create these famous marketing triggers to accelerate the conversion of e-commerce sites. For example, with Bigblue, to take a concrete example, it lets you say you'll deliver in your own time if you drop by. Big Blue has this feature, too. It also offers it to us. The idea is not to make something identical. It's that, in fact, we get information from Bigloo and we're able to push it further, and we're not able to do that with just one platform, or just one software developer, or just one carrier, we're able to do it with all the possible stags - in any case, it's also our job in the tech corner to connect with an e-merchant's entire system. And that's really what Just is all about, this simpler experience that accelerates your conversion because, thanks to the trigger, we're able to capture a purchase intention. Yeah, very interesting indeed. I think there's a lot, a lot, a lot to be done on this point and as you know, it speaks to me a lot because with loyalty, with sponsorship too, typically you have a successful buying experience, imagine immediately after your check out you propose a sponsorship link that you can share to exchange your loyalty points, So yeah, I agree, it makes me think of nothing, but with Lem Call, maybe you've heard of it. It's a spin-off of Lemlist, a Lemlist product that also offers a bit of Just's approach, reinventing the check-out process, reinventing the appointment booking page, where you can add content and things like that. It kind of reminds me of that in a way. Real thing. Yeah. Is it this or I don't know Lem Cole. I don't know Lem Cole. But I've looked at what you're describing, and it sounds like it. Anyway, the whole idea is to create a trigger that makes you want to do something, to do something. Yeah, definitely. And it's true that I find that, compared to American sites like you were saying, in France, we're not afraid of being too pushy, I think. You've got sites that do it, and we know the numbers they've got too, and I'm thinking exactly of Bocku. Bocku, he's, he's playing hardball with all that stuff. And it works. It works, it works very well. But in fact, I think there's a, there's perhaps an error of analysis and perception on the part of some retailers, in believing that it's going to damage the site's image, that it's gadgetry, that it's full of range, what have you. We're not premium enough. Yeah, and I don't think so, because in fact, the new generation arriving on the market wants simplicity. Luxury, the luxury of tomorrow, is simplicity. I mean, I draw a parallel with the physical world, an expensive purchase, something that's expensive in the physical world, well you can pay with your phone when it costs ten euros, a hundred euros, five hundred euros, you still want it to be quick, you want it to be simple. People want things to be simple, and that's the most important thing these days. Simplifying people's lives. And in fact, to repeat, luxury is simplicity. So you have to adapt to branding. Yeah, then there are solutions that exist, I imagine, I can customize it well, et caetera, I imagine for your payment page, so too cool. Do you have any examples of, you know, brands that do this well, that add a bit of all the elements we've talked about, that we can go and check out for example you know for those listening, make a purchase on such and such a brand, you've got to go all the way with the thing because otherwise it's going to deteriorate Just's stages so be nice to him. But yeah, can we go and check out some nice check outs. Checking out. Check out some check out. Super fast fabrics. Czech check out. Czech check out. Tchéquie check out. Tchéquie check out. Tchéquie check out. Tchéquie check out. There's Sink, who's just as strong, Loly's secrets, not bad, powerful too, who else Anja, it's been a long time they've been promoting the booklet tomorrow, well you order before such and such a date, you're delivered tomorrow. It's so powerful, it's crazy. Mister Republic, yes. Yes. But who else? We are new, with are new, food corner. Now that's a beautiful brand that's very beautiful. Food corner. They have a widget, I don't know if it's needed internally, but it lets you know x number of people have visited this basket, you know. It makes you want to. You know what I mean? Yeah, sure. More and more brands are taking this approach, and that's what the act of buying is all about, starting with the product page. It starts there and goes all the way through to the checkout. I believe you did a webinar not long ago with Omy and Lili Skin, one of our joint customers. Yeah, we did. I think you did a webinar on the perfect product page. And even Gorgias. And Gorgias too, yes, sorry Johann. Can you tell us a little bit about what was said there for those who couldn't attend, if there are any tips, tips and trucks, it's been accepted. Yeah, that's kind of what we know, what we said earlier, it's this ability to highlight the amount of stock available, it's highlighting when your customers are going to be delivered, it's highlighting your reviews, it's highlighting payment methods, it's highlighting that you have a flexible return policy. It's really about highlighting how many loyalty points you're going to earn, if that's possible. Exactly. In fact, you have to reassure, you have to get the consumer all the way on board. In fact, why do we say put forward, put forward, put forward? We live in a world with a culture of. Yeah. What I mean is, people spend very little time on their phones, they see something, they scroll. If they don't manage to capture their intention in less than three seconds, and if they don't get all the info in two seconds, they're dead at the basket moment. So you want to make sure that your end-consumer has as much information as possible to make his buying decision, and that there's no stopping him from making it now. Not thirty days from now. Then we know what happens after that. Then, yes, you've got great tools that can help you win, and they work very well. It allows you to recover thirty percent of your, you recover thirty percent of the before paying, are converted, keyboard just released the SMS. It's great to have these tools. And on top of that, soon we'll be trying out check-out links in Kalio's SMS reminders. Yeah, yeah, totally great. We'd love to work on that with them. But actually, I don't think that's possible. It's a who's who's who's who on the bus kind of thing. Yeah, totally, yeah. Very, very cool. Listen, not bad, not bad, not bad, I like the conversation turns he took. I learned a lot of stuff, so very interesting. Would you have any, so yeah what I like about the end of the episode, in general it's kind of up to you to tell me if you have any or not, the advice in fact it's kind of two brands that listen to us typology of business, brands that are really going to launch and brands on the other hand that are in the process of moving on to the next stage. From your experience, can you think of any strategies, tips or directly activatable things that brands in these two categories could do? First of all, I'd say invest at the bottom of your conversion funnel. It's simpler. That's it. In other words, break down your overall funnel from a to z. Look ok, I spend x at the top, I spend y in the middle, I don't spend much at the end. Look at how much you're spending. Okay, that'll tell you, okay, maybe I've underinvested in this area and I should put more effort into it. And that's all there is to it. But it's important not to underestimate the checkout. In the end, if I make a comparison, it's like tomorrow you've got a store, you've done campaigns in the metro, everyone's talking about you, it's great, you've got a store, it's incredible on the Champs-Élysées. It turns out I wasn't doing anything. On the Champs-Élysées, it wasn't the best neighborhood, we'll say in the swamp. You go, you have a beautiful boutique in the Marais, you have your boutique, it's crazy, your products are seriously highlighted. I know what you mean. Yeah, there are people who ask the people who visit the store. Are you looking for your size? Yes, I have a size thirty-two, very good. I'll put it on for you right away. The guy is happy with his product and arrives at the checkout, which is closed, there's no one there to buy. No, but that's the idea. The comparison is stupid, it's deliberately stupid, but that's basically what's happening in e-commerce. It's a good image, I think, and sometimes I expect it to be a bit different from the comparison I'm making: there are seventy percent of abandoned payments in e-commerce. Imagine yourself tomorrow at Carrefour, you're buying your pack of beer on Friday, there are ten people queuing at Carrefour, there are only a hundred people with ten people, ten people in the queue, there's only one person who ends up buying on a cell phone, for example. Why? Because the cashier actually asked you, excuse me, where you can enter the store or create an account, excuse me, can you fill in this form because otherwise I can't take your order every time. This is ridiculous. This is exactly what happens in e-commerce. If we had a shopping experience that allowed you to avoid entering information every time, to enter your c b, to know who you are because with digital, we know who you are. We know who you are. That's the truth. We could reduce this friction at check-out, cut down on wastage in the tunnel and really accelerate sales for retailers. If only this experience existed, it would be really great, but I'll pass, it does exist. I don't know either, yeah, I'm going to go and check out Weez The New to see what it has to offer. But yeah, no, it's good to imagine, I think, and in fact it's a reality, in fact it's really the whole theme of customer experience as a whole that brands are really investing in. As you said, the end of the funnel, the whole part, I've got fifteen thousand tools today. How I simplify the whole thing End of funnel. My second tip is, it depends on the brand. Not all brands have a digital team or an internalized CRO team, but in fact it's about making decisions that are database-driven. That's important, it's super important. It can't be a case of “oh, I'm testing this solution, oh it's helping me, I don't know”, you really need to know these metrics. Not all e-tailers, but we're going to be on metrics. No, that's what I was thinking, there are a lot of them, nothing to do with your topic, but on the on the feed. How much to have your loyalty tool I don't know. I don't know. And so, what's the, what's the plan what But interesting. What's the plan? Okay. So that's making decisions that are database decisions. Making ABTS to really validate the thing. I'm not just talking in general terms. Yeah, yeah. Quite a data-driven approach. Yeah. Three, I'd say, is to really diversify channels and acquisition. We're not immune to a good surprise. That's right. It's not just ads. And I know everyone's been saying that for a year now, but it's always good to remind people of it some other time. It's also about iterating on your pricing, and that's really important. If you can increase your average shopping basket by a few euros, you can do small things like that. Bundles exactly. Another piece of advice I have to give is obviously to invest in loyalty programs. I promise you, I'm not the one saying it. I promise I didn't say anything. In fact, the lifeblood of any brand is a loyal customer base. Why? Because you'll be able to monetize your acquisition campaigns. You might not get a return on the first purchase, you might get a return on the second, third, something. And on the other hand, a loyal buyer is a buyer who's going to spread the word about your brand. You're going to be able to, if you look at things in the long term, you're going to be able to crush your cac, you're going to have organic growth via customers who like you. So that's it, but the loyalty program approach, the loyalty investment is something I imagine you'll tell me if I'm talking nonsense, that there are results in the medium to long term. Totally, yeah. It depends a little, but what you can also do with retroactivity, typically we have quite a few brands that are increasingly going digital and that have, that have been around for decades and effectively, they have large customer bases that they've almost never retained. So, there are some very nice things to do. When you launch the feed program, you already have x thousands of people who have points and you send them an e-mail so they can use them. So, that's direct R0I, but you're right in principle, it's a medium- to long-term approach, you really need to give things time to develop. If your customer buys from you every 6 months, you're not going to see the difference right away. On the other hand, if the rate is higher, you'll see it faster. But yeah, totally, it's, I think the thing is that in recent years it's been so easy to get new customers that brands have kind of neglected their existing customers, and it's like us, you know, as a company founder, you know that when you take care of your customers, it makes a real difference at the end of the day. We both have a SaaS model, so if every month we have to, our customers don't pay us any more, you know, in subscriptions and so on, so it's different in e-commerce, but in fact that's where you see that retention is really, I think, the lifeblood of the business. It's the key to long-term growth prospects. And I'd like to add a phrase: a solid customer base is better than a fragile visitor base. Yeah, that's a great punchline. Maybe I'll steal it. The aim of EYOLY is obviously to increase end-consumer retention and loyalty for merchants. And there's one piece of data that you, that's going to be of great interest to you, and that's that a repeat backer, the conversion rate of a repeat backer is three to four times higher. Yeah. So if tomorrow we put some, we put some just together, we integrate. That's peak shock. We'll be able to accelerate not only the number of backer repeats, but also merchant retention KPIs and the KPIs of. Yeah, that's clear. And then there's the recommendation part, which I can see fitting in quite well with, as we were saying earlier, the reviews, the UGC that you can put in your checkouts. You put UGC in check out. No, but maybe we could, because you know brands, they collect all the UGC from their programs, all the photos, the stories, the TikToks, everything is automatically recorded and people earn points for that, so the brands have thousands of j c. Not yet exploited. They're not exploited enough, and so typically you have some who put them in ads, but you have to do a bit of editing, so that's it, it's stuff we want to make a little easier in the coming months. Some of you put them in web stories with Joy, and that works pretty well. We know each other, but we don't know each other technically. It's all the same. You have a market, yes we know each other. Checks are nice. We're partners on LinkedIn. Don't worry, we've made a partner post. No, no, but yeah, we know each other, we talk to John from time to time, and yeah, yeah, there's a partnership that's actually coming up, but on our side, he and I are learning how to walk, then how to run, and then how to fit in. So right now, we're kind of in the process of, you know Yeah, you're walking, you're doing what Yeah, right now, I'm trotting right now, right now, I'm trotting, I'm trotting well and yeah big descent coming up right now it's going it's going it's going to be rolling soon. But frankly, I don't listen to much anymore, not much, a bit of sport, a bit of, a bit of going out with friends, that's all. It's all good. You're happy in your life or you feel. I'm extremely happy. I haven't been this happy since I started Just. Yeah. So I'm sure that we're going to blow things up again, that we're still going to serve this new generation of consumers who are coming onto the market, that we're still going to bring value to our merchants. Sometimes we don't. I'll be honest with you, if you're a startup, sometimes it doesn't work out. Of course it doesn't. The idea is to make it work and accelerate e-commerce. Too well. So, where can we meet? Can we follow your news a little? Do you have news to share with us? You can find us on the Internet dot u, on LinkedIn, send me a message. Jérémy Pinto. Jérémy Pinto. Our offices are in the eleventh arrondissement, so you can knock on our door whenever you like, and you can also get in touch with Joseph directly if you'd like to make an introduction. Well, don't hesitate, and listen, Jérémy, it was a pleasure to have you here. It was a pleasure having you. We had a lot of laughs and I think we also came up with a lot of interesting tips for brands just starting out, and I was able to understand even better what Jess was doing and I find it really game changing. So I can't wait to join in very soon. Joseph, thank you for having me in your offices. It was really cool. I had a good laugh too, and I'm hoping to do something with Loyoly in the near future to continue accelerating sales for our dear e-merchant friends and simply bring e-commerce value. Very nice. Well, thanks again. Thanks again. Thank you for listening to this episode of Loyoly talks all the way through. I hope you enjoyed it and found plenty of tips to try out for your brand. If so, subscribe so you don't miss the next one. Spread the word and leave us a star rating on the Apple podcast, it really helps us. Finally, if you need to increase your LTV, don't hesitate to contact me on LinkedIn or on our dot I o site. See you soon.