One, having target open rates that are between thirty-five and forty-five percent, you see Ok. On basic segments, obviously on your golden third segment, you have more, but it's, I mean it's normal. Hello, you're listening to the podcast, which is all about e-commerce. Once a month, I host an inspirational personality from the French e-commerce ecosystem for a friendly, unpretentious discussion on the subjects they're passionate about. The aim is to decipher e-commerce trends and share practical tips for making your e-shop a success. I'm Joseph Aubry, co-founder of Loyoly, the loyalty and sponsorship platform that lets you engage your customers through over fifty mechanisms, sharing user content, customer reviews and much more to increase your LTV and lower your CAC. If you enjoy Oylite Talks, please subscribe and feel free to leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to support us. Happy listening. Well, Thomas, I'm very happy to have you on the podcast. We've known each other for a while now. You've also seen the evolution of Wink, who has moved over to Loyoly. So, it's been a while, and of course, as soon as we launched this format, I immediately wanted to invite you to talk about a number of subjects, as you've been in the game, as they say, for some time now. You're quite present on LinkedIn and Email Club, so it's an agency that everyone knows when they talk about keyboards these days, at least in France. But for those of you who don't know you yet, perhaps you could give us a quick introduction. And don't hesitate, as Paul Louis did last time, to tell us a little about your hobbies outside work, if you do any gardening, if you have any other hobbies, it's always great to have that information. That's great. Thanks so much for the invitation. I'm very happy that we were able to find a date since we work so closely together, but I don't live in France, so it took us a while to work it out. My name is Thomas, and I'm the founder of e-mail club. We're a CRM agency, so we mainly help e-retailers with their retention, which means email automation, SMS, WhatsApp and, in particular, netting programs too. I'm currently living in Andorra, plus I'm out and about a bit. So I don't do much gardening, I don't have a house, but more mountain biking, skiing, things like that. That's why I'm in Andorra. Very cool. Yeah, of course it is. It's the right, right place for that stuff. Yes. Yes. So good. Well, listen, today we're going to be able to talk about, as you said, a lot of subjects around customer retention, so we're going to talk a bit about mailing, loyalty, WhatsApp, the tools you use. There are also some good practices. The aim is also, of course, to give really actionable tips for the brands that are going to listen to us. So listen, I'm very, very much looking forward to this conversation. Maybe for starters, you're very familiar with the e-commerce ecosystem. I know you also have a few customers in the US. I'd like to get your feeling, your feedback over the last few years on your perception of the e-commerce ecosystem in France. And why not, I'd be interested to see what you think of the US one and how maybe one influences the other Yeah, listen, we're, we're present on different markets, particularly in France where it's a little more than half of our customers. Okay. And then in other markets and a little in the US. Okay. Listen, we started email club three years ago. I'd say one of the interesting things is that everyone's progressing and everyone's progressing fast. In fact, we've already been lucky in that quite a few of our customers have gone on to achieve great growth, as have some of your customers. Or as a result, you've got lots of new challenges coming up, so that's cool. What's changed a lot in France recently is that more and more brands are interested in loyalty. And that's why we're talking to each other a lot too. So these are really nice subjects, and they're particularly interesting if you're doing a certain volume. At the beginning, it's less interesting, and that's what it's all about. After that, I'm not very, I'm not very integrated into the ecosystem in the US, because the smallest ones, we have ten, fifteen clients who are mostly French who go to the US or small companies in the US, well not small companies in the US. And in reality, it's not small companies, but often it's French people I know. The big differences are that we don't do WhatsApp at all, for example, hardly at all. Yeah, yeah. Ok. You've got a big SMS culture over there, which you're not going to have much of here. We've had SMS for a very long time and it's really cheap too, so we can have fun. And then, I think we have a lot of brands in France where we were looking at u s. As for e-mail, it's interesting because e-mail is my big subject. We really have different approaches. A French DNVB will talk a lot. We have e-mails with a lot of text that you can see, templates where we go a lot, that are constructed, and so on. Where you have a lot of boxes in the US, where it's very simple and you can see it on their site too, it's very simple, you have three words, and so on. So that's a bit different. We have a dedicated team, so they have different practices, you know, different schedules. You know, we were talking about, you have different sales pressures too. Yeah. So there you go, it's a lot of fun. Personally, I'd love to see us continue to grow in the US, since you've got so much to do. We've got ten, fifteen customers, you know, we could get a lot of stuff done. Okay, interesting. Yeah, it's, it's, it's true that in France, we have a slightly more literary approach than them, a much more, as they say, approach. Yeah, then afterwards, I like a lot, you see basically, I like a lot more the content that we're going to do in French n l where sometimes we're going to be criticized for having a lot of texts and so on. So it's not the case in all emails, but the newsletter aspect and so on, it's something that's nice to really take the time to communicate with your customers. Ok, and to get to the heart of the matter, perhaps for those listening, what I like to ask as a question to start with, is what are the most frequent mistakes you see when you start working with brands who previously managed their CRM and email themselves? You have two main topics. Let's say you've got automation and newsletters. You have three subjects: packaging, automation and newsletters. Do you have a real stratum of optimizing collection through your pop-up? Do you really try to test, do lots of things to get more people in the base? That has a major impact on perf. And for us, it's a subject where we're sometimes good and sometimes we struggle too, because it deserves to be more agile, you see, because you really have a crazy impact if you double your collection. So I think that's the first thing I try to optimize when I open an account, not only on the site, but also through other channels. You see, if I have a company that's willing to make a diagnosis, et cetera. Do I have a diagnosis? A diagnosis is one, it's great to base it on and to enrich it too. When it comes to automation, you've got plenty of boxes that aren't developed. My audit notes are full of Loyoly flows, you see. You'll only have Loyoly transactional flows, and they're not integrated into your other touchpoints. You've worked with Océane on a long document on this subject, but you obviously have the transactional subjects, which are often triggered by a customer action, but then you have a whole host of other moments when you could be doing lots of things. You often have automations that are underdeveloped, especially post-purchase, and that's where you often don't make enough use of feed programs. And then there's the planning. If you open an account and tell yourself that less than ten percent of my sales come from newsletters, then you're subcontracting your planning, and if you look at your calendar, most likely the brands will contact everyone at once. At the very least, we could contact prospects, customers, VIP customers or third-party feed customers and not do that anymore, you see. But if you work on that, you'll always have a way of making an impact. And after a billion things you could. And that's interesting, the last point you made about transactional emails. Basically, what you're saying is that typically when there's a feed program, if I've understood correctly, sometimes the audiences behind it aren't necessarily well reworked. In other words, you have VIPs on one side, because the feed program automatically classifies them. And then, the audiences aren't necessarily ultra-worked independently, when they should be, for example, sending flash sales to your gold tiers, because potentially, those who are going to buy from you, what. Earlier you were telling me about a feed program you're working on, where one of the advantages will be to communicate to the loyalty third party some n l in advance. I'm talking about a customer here, and some of our customers have been fe customers for a long time, so they're more familiar with the idea, and when we draw up the newsletter schedule with them, they have this reflex. You see, we're launching a boutique in a French city, and the game is how to get the queues to line up on the day of the launch. That's a trick, it's not extremely complicated if you've got a good base and you're giving a gift, and then you see the customer say, well, we're going to take these two-thirds loyalty customers, and we're going to write to them and tell them that because they're VIP customers, they're obviously invited and all they have to do is register, whereas the others we're going to tell them, you've got to register. It doesn't change anything, but the guy says to himself, I'm a customer close to this town and I'm a member, so all I have to do is rs v p. My communication is different, it's too stylish. Yeah, that's it. In fact, that's really the point, it's a bit like what we were saying just before about a feed program, you have a really quantitative logic for the brand and then you also have the fact of reinforcing the consumer's feeling of belonging to the brand. It's a pity not to communicate with VIP customers, who deserve to be considered differently from others. So I think that's a good thing to keep in mind when reworking audiences. There are other audiences based on dynamic segments, such as I don't know all the parents, for example, which you can also work on from time to time. What are the two or three audiences that you saw when you started working on them, that were potentially game changers? It really depends on your customer. Basically, we have customers who will sell products that lend themselves to a rapid and customers who lend themselves to a rapid. In reality, it has nothing to do with your segmentation. Don't forget that segmentation means extra work. So I wouldn't recommend that someone doing it in-house over-segment because they're going to have to do x. Okay. Sometimes, it's interesting to take short cuts, you know what I was talking about for the store. In reality, it's nothing, it's fifteen minutes of extra work to personalize the thing, and it's still a much better experience. You see, we're going to give priority to different levels of customers, at the very least, if you just want the perf aspect. So you talk to your prospects differently. They're not going to buy. They're not going to buy. In fact, you know very well what, a company with experience, knows what makes its prospects convert, which products are gateways and so on. So it's cool if you talk to them differently. Prospects, and why not old prospects to whom you could communicate special offers, but isolating prospects is already cool. Then often customers realize that once they've placed a certain number of orders, they don't behave the same way. So I don't know, a guy who's bought once or twice, you might have more pressure than multiple time lessor. And you see, I had a call this week with a customer who's making a big offer, and we're a bit of a pushover. We might send two emails on Sunday, two emails on Monday over the last few days, you know, which is very, very slack. But the second Sunday mail, you see, we'll segment it so that the most committed customers are left a little more alone, because we know there's no point in getting them drunk. So you see, you can play on your pressure with the first and second time lessors, and then the multiple time lessors can be cool. And then, it depends on your product typology, but I'm not launching a deodorant. I had a deodorant before, I'm doing a new deodorant formula. Well, it's cool if you segment the guys who've already bought your previous deodorant and then those who've bought the deodorant, those who've never bought it and why not those who bought the deodorant before and gave you a bad review, you can talk to them even more differently, why not offer them, and so on. Stuff on the side. But already, the main thing is to segment, and it's a bit like what you do, it's to segment by whether it's a prospect, a loyal customer, etc. You can have a lot of fun with that, and then by product category, which is often more important for people who sell cosmetics or products with a high repurchase potential. Agreed. Who do we work with, segmentation star and Marine who works on the segmentation star account because you're exploding the volume of e-mails you do. But of course, for the guy who's already bought a shower gel, there's no point in you selling him a shower gel. You sell him the refile, but there's a really nice mechanism. On the other hand, say to yourself, ok, buyer shower gel, not buyer shampoo, then you have very simple stuff. Okay, okay, interesting. It's not bad, I think, it gives ideas, I think to all those who have their head in their CRM at the moment. And this brings me to the question of the types of emails that work well. We've talked a bit about newsletters. What do you think of the kind of full-text emails sent by, say, the founder to customers of personalized mothers, and so on? Is this something that works well Grave and we were talking about the evolution of the ecosystem. If you look back two years ago, there were a lot fewer brands using it. Today, I think most brands do. Yeah, it's very good for deliverability reasons, it's guys who are super light and often where you're going to have a subject and a sender who give the impression that it's an e-mail sent by a human, so a better open rate. We send a lot of them, I don't know, maybe one in three is a text email, it depends on the brand, but you deliver better, you often have good engagement rates and if you really write it like a human, it's an email that's cool to read in real life. And more and more, people are going, we're going to try to make it a little prettier anyway with little elements that are nice. And then you have brands where we'll push the joke or where they'll also push the joke with us because it's a, they get caught up in the game. If you look at the series of e-mails from neuf-cent-cair, you'll see lots of things where you'll have lots of, you'll have different people talking to each other, it's cool. So that's what's important, and that's what performs well if you have to play deliverability because you don't have super deliverability, that's it. But you just can't do it all day long. Okay. Vary the formats a bit and push those kinds of e-mails at the right time. And it's limited on the putaclic in the sense that it's obvious that if you have an enticing subject line, you're going to get more kind re about your order, you see that's a winner. Now maybe leave that as the third abandonment e-mail check out prospect and don't 6 him every day because and then in that case you have to if you have a really that's a thing, if you have an object that's really aggressive, you'd have to address it right from the start you know. Like hello, I'm contacting you about your order. Ok Ok, so that he can actually see in the e-mail a little preview. Yes, and that way you'll respect your customer a little more, because if you're not very disappointing with your customers in the long term, it's not great. That's why it's good that you're doing good deliverability afterwards, working as if you were thinking of another customer. Okay, so use it sparingly. And you mentioned the word putaclic, which raises the question of two or three types of copywriting on I don't know, CTAs, objects too, I think, what would be the two or three things that come to mind first when you think of CTAs that have worked well or objects that have worked well. As far as I'm concerned, you should always reread your content out loud. So if he can't easily read it out loud, there's little chance of it being interesting and enjoyable to read. Two, it would be cool to be able to cut out a good chunk. If when you proofread it, you don't cut out a big chunk, maybe it's because, you see, one of our long-standing customers used to say that to my team all the time. I'd like to say hello to Aymeric from neuf-cent-querres who, right from the start of the collab, said yeah, if you're not, if you don't have just thirty percent, it's because you haven't taken enough stuff out. You tend to want to make a big deal of it, na na na. I mean everything. Go ahead, cut. When you reread it, if you don't cut it out, your e-mail is going to be too long, and then you're always going to introduce these CTAs. So you see, in our French-language e-mails where we talk to our customers, you introduce your CTAs a little, you say, hop je te propose de toi, tu si tu me envoie un mail, tu comme un humain quoi puis quand tu le rise voilà. And then for the objects, it's really a very important subject, because you can still stand out from the crowd if you have interesting objects. There are boxes that are too strong in objects and benchmarking, I think, you can find good ideas. Don't hesitate to take good ideas if you find them. It's the same for us at Hubspot, we often take inspiration from other boxes that are in the airlock too, to check out what they're doing. And I'll ask you again at the end of the podcast about a few, a few things to go and get. It's good like that, it makes people stay until the end of the podcast. I learned that this weekend. You were talking about the boutique, a brand that you helped launch on a boutique, and now it's going to be a little bit about omnichannel, omnicanality. How do you work with your customer base, perhaps a little differently, when you're a company that also has a physical sales channel? We have less of a disclaimer, I'm less of an expert on this subject in the sense that I must have, we must have sixty active customers, you may have ten who have a store and who aren't often, often it's a store in addition to the e-com and then you must have five customers where there are really several stores. The first question is do you have a do you have a do you have a point of sale that's the same as your point of sale that's the same as your point of sale that's the same as your CMS online, so if you have Shopify and Shopify point of sale, that's wonderful. We'll be able to work with Yalee, for example. That's really cool. So, maybe you don't have it, you know. If you don't. It's pretty new actually, I think, it's been around for like a year or two, P0S. I think it's been around longer. But on the other hand, it was less developed, I think it's a bit like Shopify, they're going to get more and more customers from people who had other CMSs. Maybe you'll get more and more, but I think the key is to already have a customer file that's at least more or less unified. So you see, I was talking to a Loyoly customer this week who has, maybe this will speak to you. He has a Shopify site and he has points off sell on another tool and so unfortunately we don't have those and so that's annoying. One of the solutions is to switch his P0S, but if you have fifteen stores, he's not going to do it tomorrow. Can I create automations from the RP to create Shopify orders that are at full field, so that I have two things that work together? This will change everything. And so I can see them on my customer space, have my thread points and so on. So that's it, it's really great if you can do that. Yeah. And then for e-mails, obviously that has an impact. We don't work on it as much because we don't have as many customers who do that, but already a company that works on it a lot gets great reviews for its store. They'd lift their boutiques for launches, for big events like Christmas and so on, and when you're not shitting anymore, you can do lots of cool things. And so yeah, that's that's too good. And the, the, in the future I hope we'll have more and more of them, and that we'll be able to have more and more fun with this kind of project, you know. Yeah, definitely, yeah. I think omnichannel is a really interesting theme, to create bridges between the physical and digital worlds. We were talking about it the other day, I think, with PS, and it's true that many DNVBs are now going to open physical points of sale to take the next step, and conversely, i.e. the biggest companies are also going in the exact opposite direction, i.e. with lots of physical boutiques, but now they're not very strong on digital and so they're copying what the DNVBs are doing, I have the impression, at least at my level, that this omnichannel approach is becoming more and more important, and that from a customer experience point of view, you can create synergies between your physical point of sale, your e-shop, your customer support, your reviews and your social networks. And yeah, I think that's really exciting, with all the tools we have, we have so much access to so much data that I think there are some really cool things to do in the next few months. And for you as for us in loyalty and also in CRM, I was in Paris the other day, buying in a boutique of a brand that we won't name and that has lots of points of sale and that sells online and that I know basically through online sales, but I had never bought. Okay. And when it was time to pay, the salesman asked me for my e-mail address, because that's where I'd get the receipt. He says, don't worry, I won't sign you up for the newsletter. I was there, I didn't want to bother him because I was in a hurry. I say fuck it, you're breaking my heart, like go ahead, sell me the newsletter instead. Ah, that's too good. Whereas if he'd worked in a, if it was a typical customer brand, we've got some big slackers, we're going to do everything we can to get you to sign up for the newsletter. Because then I'm going to get him to come back, plus I bought them a sweater, I could buy them lots of other stuff. She broke my heart. So omnichannel is really great, because you see with Loyoly, you're going to be able to base it in-store too, and you've got an excuse to base it, which would be C'est clair. You say, imagine the sales assistant says to you, there you go, would you like me to create a customer account for you In real life, the quotation marks, the receipt pretext, that's a nugget, we're not going to lie to ourselves, because everyone, no one anymore You give him your e-mail. You give him your e-mail address. And then he says, by the way, do you want to create an account so you can get ten percent off your next order? Or with your sweater you already have a hundred and fifty points, go ahead and do it. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, even better. So good. I can't wait until we have more and more omnichannel projects to do CRM. Yeah, that'll be cool. And speaking of CRM and the retention part. Let me take you back to our topic, our common topic. We've put out a little advertising page, a joint piece of very cool content on the eleven must-have emails for feed programs. So feel free to check it out for starters. Thanks to Océane. Thank you Océane. And Flof, who did a great job. Great work together. Very good. If you don't have these eleven types of live e-mails and you work with Loyoly, I recommend you take a look. So, yeah, in relation to the retention stratum, this is a rather broad question, but how do you integrate mailing into your retention stratum, into your feed programs on Klaviyo? in addition to loyalty, the game is to help people buy again, by identifying through data the different phases of purchase and the timeframes at which we expect purchase duration, the timeframes at which we're disappointed because we were expecting a purchase duration, but it didn't happen, and so on. So that's going to dictate my flow. Welcome post-purchase, cross-sell, slash torturing. So, for the first thing you do, you look at the frequency of re-purchase. You know, the starting point for you to frame the frequency of consumer contact. Yeah, you mentioned Shopify, that's great. You download the live timely application, it's great. You can pull up re-purchase curves, so you can see the evolution from the first order to the second, how many percent of people bought Overtime. So I can see that if I'm selling a product that doesn't lend itself to instant repeats, maybe during my first thirty days, I don't have a huge repurchase rate. So it would be cool if I could maximize the repurchase by giving you tips, etcetera, on how to use it, etcetera. So if you do that, you're going to, for example if I'm selling dietary supplements, my duration is thirty days, for the first fifteen days and it's to make sure that people really use the cure and that they get the benefits you see. In short, I support you. Then, if you're selling products with a fast track like my cures, we'll take a look at the re-purchase times. Obviously, someone who bought a three-month cure doesn't have the same re-purchase time as someone who bought a one-month cure. So you don't have the same triggers. Okay. And so there it is, slash, so basically, get people to repurchase the product. And conversely, if you're selling sweaters, you don't want to sell the guy a sweater, you want to sell him another product. So you cross that one, it's another typology but it's a bit in the same phase when you're waiting for orders. Yeah. And then there's a moment when the guy who bought your three-month cure, if he hasn't bought back in 6 months or and you'll see this is when the curve flattens out or when you've done eighty percent of the conversions you were expecting, well then you know that it's in your interest to try and retarget them as if you'd lost them. So potentially there are discounts that we're obviously going to call back. Like x, here's ten percent if you redeem, valid for seven days, in five days, you're not going to take advantage of your code, watch out it's going to expire in two days. Okay. And so that's the part, if I don't have a feed program. And if I have a feed program, all the same, but more segmented. So there you can have more fun. Your welcome series is cool because you'll be able to say look, you've got x external point, so it's a bit like the different mails we have in our pdf. When the guy you want to cross sell, if he has a code available, you'll remind him that you have a code, if he's x points away from a third-party loyalty, you'll tell him that. If he's never done a referral, you'll tell him to do one. You get the idea. And in fact, you have your basic touch points and if you're good and you have a thread program and it integrates well, you integrate it into the tool, into Claviyo. And so, in the end, it's all the more engaging. Too good. In fact, super clear. Even I'm learning things, you know, so I really understand better how you work, the cadence according to the frequency of re-purchases, simply the starting point for structuring everything behind it. And if you don't have live timely, you still have to do it. You just have to try and find another way to get those curves out. Yeah. A tool like Klaviyo won't let you do it, but you can do it. In particular, they have a tool called Advanced Analytics. You just have to contact them. It's too good and it'll let you produce curves like this. So that's heavy. If you don't have it, you have to do Excel. It's no big deal, you can do it. It's not very complicated either and it's really, you know, it's week onboarding, you have to try and understand a little bit, you know, when you want to do post-purchase flows, what the data is, you know. Yeah, totally, okay, so yeah, live timely The idea behind Shopify, live timely is too good. Ok and then a good old Excel like we like. It speaks to you, it always works. It's just a bit more boring. But yeah, it allows you to really get to grips with the thing. So it's true that it's an indispensable table, in fact, without which you can't do anything behind the scenes, as you said. Before purchasing flow items, yeah, that's essential. After that, common sense allows you to make the right choices, you know about one-month, three-month cures and so on. But yeah. Ideally, yeah, you have an approach that's really based on your data. And then, and this is a disclaimer, if you've got really big volumes, you can use predictive tools that will trigger the flow of products based on your customers' re-purchasing habits. Okay. Which doesn't work if you have small volumes, but works well if you have large volumes. It has to. And especially with Advance analytics, you'll be able to educate the algo to explain to it, depending on the products, what the changes are in the idea of re-purchase. If you're selling cures, don't use this trigger because the basic trigger doesn't take into account whether the guy bought three months or one month. So it's stupid, the flows won't make sense for the customer. Okay, okay, I understand. But you see, you can have fun in the future with AI, potentially having less and less need to do this, which can't be better than an AI that's really intelligent and knows the normal re-purchase delay of people who've bought a one-month cure, you see. Yeah, it's clear, yeah, yeah, it's true that it's going to be a pretty interesting evolution. For example, is polar analytics a tool that allows you to do things like that? We don't use it as much, I think Polar is more on the acquired side perhaps. On the analysis side you know, post, it's hyper complete you know. Yeah. But that's more on the purchasing side, well once you've done the, you've done your CRM work, you're going to look at what's going on, how your cohorts are behaving and so on. I'd say that for us in the future, it's either Klaviyo who's making progress on AI and that's going to do the trick, or you've got tools you need to work a bit with quantify or things like that. Yes to quantify too. Who offers this kind of approach or at the time you had and there are others. Okay. But we don't do it as much for our customers, because often these tools weren't developed enough, and the volumes don't lend themselves to it as much, I think. If you've got fifteen real refs, that's it when you do your analysis, and I think you've got a good base. It'll be interesting to see how this whole predictive side of things evolves, with everything that's going on with AI today. Very cool. And a quick question about loyalty. Of course, those who really want to delve into the subject can go and download the eleven emails, the content we've produced together. Do you have any other tips for promoting your email feed program, either by using variables, such as what we say quite often, in a way that I think is one of the first things that comes to mind? is to use the number of points in a banner in a few emails to remind your customer that he's up to his loyalty points, that he's on his VIP page, Do you have any other little tricks like that that you can think of to increase commitment in fact on a feed program on the CRM side? I think the thing that's going to have the biggest impact if you look a year from now on the usage rate of your program is how often you use it in the newsletters. Right. And often you've got two types of loyalty programs, you've got stuff that's going to be cobbled together and built by hand on tools like Klaviyo that are both very good, but don't facilitate that because you've got a big margin of error in doing that. Okay. And the advantage of fidelity tools, among others, but the major advantage, will be the ease with which the program can be reused in n l. Yes. You see, for example, you're not going to ask me to do four n ls each time if I have three thirds. You're just going to personalize it in a quali way without too much risk. You'll be able to do it differently if you have a hand-built program, but it's a bit more work with show and id and things like that. Show and id stuff to hide blocks but that makes the newsletter heavier, so yeah, but if you use it there. Now I understand. All the time, of course, that's where you have an impact because not everyone buys all the time, so the flows aren't going to come every time, you see. On the other hand, if you're doing n l, yeah. Ok ok interesting. And then, yeah, you see now on the more benchmark part, I think it could also be cool for the brands that listen to us to give a little, that can project themselves and compare themselves. Of course, I know you're going to tell me that it depends a lot on industries and sectors and so on, and on the frequency of re-purchases and so on. Of course, it has a big impact on all that, but I wanted to ask you what a good open rate, click rate, conversion rate, spam rate is for you, if you have a bit of a general benchmark. And particularly according to your segmentation, because if you shoot at the whole world, i.e. your entire base, versus if you shoot at engaged agents, you won't have the same open rates. That doesn't mean that you've done one, that you're, you're delivering them significantly better. Me, I like to look at having target open rates that are between thirty-five and forty-five percent you see. Okay. On basic segments obviously on your third segment or you have more but it's, I mean it's normal. Click-through rates, so CTR, click-on-open rates that are and so that's what's interesting for the content, well for the interest of the content that are between five and ten percent, that's really cool. They're going to be higher on high third parties or loyal customers and they're going to run at three, four, five percent on prospects. That's heavy. Knowing that the openings are partly and for the most part simulated by Apple privacy open since the end of two-thousand-and-one. So some openings are simulated by Apple to protect its users. The average NVB in France is between fifty and seventy percent Apple privacy open. A box in the U.S. has eighty percent. So that's why your openings, voilà. It's important to learn with a pinch of salt, with the opening rate, it doesn't mean, what's really important is to make the difference in the end, it's the CTR as you say. Exactly, and you can export it. So if you do a campaign export if you're working on Klaviyo, we can see the Apple Pravacy Open and so first an idea of that. Right. But on Klaviyo, you can't in the basic campaign view say show me excluding Apple Pravacy Open the opening rate. So you could recalculate it by hand in your monthly report. Okay. There you go. And then, everything is different called Storder rate which will depend on whether there's a promotion or whether it's a particular segment. So what's interesting is to take these KPIs over different periods, let's say a month, and on a standard schedule, and try to improve them through marginal changes, you see. So that's what's cool. And after the n l, so the newsletters, they must make up ten to fifteen percent of sales. We follow, you see I work with Océane in a less visible way to look at all our accounts and make sure we're moving towards that and what makes you stray from it is your schedule. It's in we're you see you're recording, you're you're you're halfway through the month if you're not good, it's because maybe you did if you do your sponsorship on the first weekend of the month, maybe that wasn't the best weekend to do that and maybe you should have done it on the third weekend of the month. Because people have less money at the beginning. Because at the beginning of the month, there's money and that's when you want to make your, you want to go and make your turnover so you're going to make some maybe that's when you're going to push some well basically you're playing with your schedule what. Yeah. Well, if you don't make ten to fifteen percent in n I, it's your schedule that's bad. So if you want to do that every month, that's it. So that's really the thing I'll be checking. Because after the flows because of Apple Private Open, optimism is present you see. And then on the flows, we're going to have fifty percent, that's attribution of the welcome series or thirty percent, so that's something to look at with a bit more caution and especially look at the performance of emails two and three and more or basket abandonment, same thing, purchase item. Pre-purchase, cart abandonment, it's all the same. The first e-mail obviously needs to be optimized, but of course it performs well. On the other hand, if you manage to optimize your second e-mail and make it work fifty percent better than the second e-mail you had before, in particular by playing around with the deadlines or the subject lines, you'll have a huge impact on where you see your welcome series or your thirty-minute check-up abandonment. Was it really the CRM team that brought in this sale, or did this sale not take place, or would it have taken place in any case? That's the question that will always remain unanswered. That's just it. And that goes for all the stages in the funnel. After that, when it comes to retention, we're really the ones who have to be the least clever, since we bring fewer people to the site. So when it comes to newsletters, we're more relaxed about our performance because you can see that you've driven people to the site. Yeah. On the first touch point of flows, pre-purchase, you're often very optimistic. Okay, okay, okay. It's really cool to have this benchmark, and yeah, on the spam and deliverability rates. I have the impression that it's a bit of an obscure subject for some brands, who think, well, it's deliverability rate, you know, I'll send some emails and then we'll see, you know, some guys will receive them, and maybe it's up to you to tell me if my impression is true or not, but maybe it's something that brands don't pay enough attention to or that's a bit too little known. Do you have any advice on how to improve deliverability and avoid spam? Yes, it's really important because it has a huge impact on your performance. It's very hard to measure in the sense that you don't have a tool that will really show you the percentage of people who have spammed your mail. So, for example, with Google Postmaster, you can measure the domain's reputation. In fact, you'll be able to observe the reputation of the domain and the reputation of the IPs and the spamming rate of the users, but this is ridiculously low in a normal way. I agree. Customers don't spam themselves, you see, unless they're extremely sloppy. Yes. Normally, that doesn't happen too much. Right. And you're in a normal industry. And you're in a normal industry. So it's very hard to measure, so a good way to measure it is through open rates. Do I have good opening rates And do I have good opening rates on all the providers? So on most of the good CRMs, Klaviyo among others but especially the others, you can see the opening rate per provider. Right, then. If I have a very poor opening rate on Hotmail, I can already contact the Abuses services, so you need to type in Google Abuse Hotmail. I'll do that. And we write to them, we say no guys, I don't understand. I only contact opt-ins. Why are you spamming me? You call them back because they don't reply. But then they reply and you have a real impact on that, it works. Okay. And so we measure that plus we don't have the same engagement criteria. So let's say you've got a brand that's got thirty percent open rate on Hotmail and thirty, thirty-eight on Gmail. We're going to Gmail and we're going to behave normally, we're going to contact a segment, I don't know engage sixty days or ninety days. People who have interacted with emails in the last sixty or ninety days. If I'm less good on Hotmail, I do and don't have Hotmail on my ninety days and for Hotmail, I put and Hotmail and there I put thirty days. As a result, I'm building up my reputation artificially, because that's what deliverability is all about, showing commitment. Okay. I work on my reputation by sending to people who interact with my e-mails and then I measure it through a Google postmaster, for example, which is really interesting, and then if you really have a spamming problem, there are tools that allow you to track whether there are problems with your IP pool. Unfortunately, so you need to know that most tools like Klaviyo, we work on shared IP pools because our customers don't have sufficient volumes to have dedicated IPs. Can you ok, a shared IP pool to just understand basically what it is Basically, since this year, everyone is master of their reputation to everyone signs their emails through their domain. So you've got a dedicated sub-domain for your emails, which will then sign for mailings with Google, for example. That's fine. But the email will be sent through an IP address that doesn't belong to you and that you often borrow from your tool like Klaviyo, which will create pools of IPs that it will use on different accounts. And then sometimes Klaviyo will move you from one IP to another. So maybe it's interesting to look if you have a drastic drop, what's going on with your IP Does your IP have a good reputation And then on the bigger accounts, we have some, you can have a dedicated IP, but that's where you're the master of your reputation so you have to be all the more careful but at least you don't learn any risk if you behave well you're fine. And for these people, it's really interesting to take control of the transactional side of things, because the transactional side creates interaction, so if it creates interaction, it improves your reputation, so you can play with that kind of thing. I agree. To a certain extent, i.e. if you're really big, it's unlikely that you'll use the same IP pools for transactional as for commercial because you don't want to impact transactional with commercial if the marketing team gets a little carried away during a magnifying glass. On the other hand, we can use transactional to warm up IPs, to warm up domains that we'll then send to commerce. In short, there's not much risk of spam. It's just that if we contact people who are opt-in, if we monitor our open rates and work a little in that direction towards open rate targets, we're good, there's no spam and we contact people who are interested, and so on, obviously, and a little practice for our type of customer, obviously, if possible, when you're doing b-to-b, do it on another account, because that's going to have a serious impact on us, because it's often the case that closures are bad. But yes, except for putting you in the spam box, because you don't have the same practices, you work with opt-outs versus e-com, so it's really good to get rid of that. Okay, that's important, I think. No. For the time being, that's what we're doing too, and I'm thinking yeah, if you treat them the same way, you're going to, no no bueno, I think. No, it's nothing to do with that. It's really cool, it's really interesting. I find this part a bit obscure, it's also a bit technical in real terms, here's how to heat up your domain a bit and the idea of shared hens and all that. So it's pretty technical. And I was wondering, you know, for example, we also do b-to-b emails and you have to set up your servers a bit, you know, I don't know what it's called. I don't know what it's called. That's another thing, is it Klaviyo who takes care of it? Klaviyo will take care of that. You'll just have to do the domain part and the markdown. The markdown is nothing crazy, it's just your identity card, no, that's it, it's the rule that tells the postmaster, so for example at Gmail, what do you do if you see an e-mail arrive and it's not signed by me. So with your domain dedicated sending, you sign with the markdown, you say ok if there's a guy who sends an email with at mois dot com, but there's no the, it's not signed. Do you let it through Do you quarantine it Do you, do you block it It's nothing crazy, it's just that it's mandatory now anyway and there are great tutorials on the internet. Ok ok very clear, very cool. We've been talking a lot about Klaviyo, and I'm a bit interested in understanding what the other email tools are. There's Brevo, which used to be called Sending Blue, so it's really well known across all industries. And so my question is, why do you prefer Klaviyo? In any case, why is it the tool you've chosen to work with the most? What are the alternatives? I work on Klaviyo because I used to work in an e-com group where we had everything on Klaviyo. Right. I did the analysis at the time, we were Shopify. What were the alternatives? Was it worth challenging Klaviyo because it was costing us a lot of money? And the conclusion was that it was really too good. So when we started email club, we only had Claviyo. After a while, we opened up a bit and realized that we were too small to take on other tools because of your documentation, team training and so on, so we concentrated on Klaviyo for a long time. Today, we're also working on other tools for me, but mainly on Klaviyo, very mainly on Klaviyo, because for me, it's a great tool. If you're doing ecom and you're connected to Shopify, there's really very little point in challenging it. It's superbly integrated, you'll be able to have dynamic product flows and so on. In fact, you've got everything you want to do with your tool. And in general, you see, we've just signed an app, and we're putting it on Klaviyo. Yeah, because once you've really understood how Klaviyo works and how you feed it data, it's great, it's your data house and then from that, and so one of the sources is you, and from that you can do whatever you want. So yeah, it's a great tool. After that, you could work with other tools, like Brevo or YNote. Anyway, it's all about use. If the tool is good, if it's well connected, there's not much impact. Often, you won't see many Brevo accounts that are as well deployed as a Klaviyo account. And then, in the alternatives, you'll have Omnissend, which is significantly cheaper and also does SMS, and which is generally well integrated and works well. And then, in some cases, we'll have companies working with Sendgrid, which is particularly handy if you're playing with domains, IPAs and so on, but which is much less fun for email automation, which is why we use Slaviyo. That's why we use Slaviyo. So, if I had an ecom today, I'd recommend people to use Klaviyo. It's a good choice, you know. Yeah, okay, okay, Maxence. And you were talking a bit about SMS. What about the SMS stratum, or rather SMS in the CRM stratum? It's a touch point among others on what we were talking about earlier in terms of post-purchase flow or pre-purchase flow, SMS or WhatsApp more recently, and a touch point among others with a great engagement rate. And so, although there is a cost, you have a marginal cost compared with an e-mail or, in general, it costs next to nothing to send an additional e-mail. Whereas an SMS or WhatsApp will cost between five and fifteen cents, depending on whether it's an SMS or WhatsApp. So we do a lot of both. We do a lot of both. If you've got a big commercial operation, we'll integrate SMS or WhatsApp into your calendar too, so with a reminder like watch out for the latest hours, et cetera. So that it works well, you know. So you have to do both and Ok. It would be cool to integrate a little SMS, a little WhatsApp and in your collection and in your opt-in, it's cool to work on that so I can feed it later if I change my mind, have opt-ins. So in my pop-up, do I really collect the phone number, et caetera. Okay, okay, very clear. The next subject we talked about was WhatsApp. So we're going to mention a few solutions that are on the market, French solutions, of which I know three, I think. You've got Simio, who we know because he was at the incubator with us, and I think you've also got someone you work with. I work a lot with whatever. And I think I've seen another one in the past called Cocooya, if I'm not mistaken. Do you know what this one is? No, so I wasn't very exhaustive, I think that once again, as with Klaviyo, all the tools can help you reach your goal. It's just a question of use, you know, I think, of automation tools. Basically, we were working on WhatsApp with Aisensy, which is an Indian player. Right. Really among the first to be positioned, which is really cheap and all. They're doing something really amazing on the, they've got some really sick ones and everything, it's really successful. It's great, you see, it lets you do exactly the same thing. Except that there's a whole phase that we don't master at all, which is the Nebelment. Basically, at the very beginning, I don't work on my customers' business managers. So there's this whole phase where we have to connect and it was really painful and we weren't with, I have a lot of customers in France and it wasn't a French support. In fact, in our search for a WhatsApp partner, we wanted a partner where we were really support, you know. That's just it. Because I have a call with my customer on Thursday, and we say, well, we've got to do this, there's a question, but I've got to be able to answer it quickly. So we switched, we work with Wax, it does the job very well, but I imagine it's better, it's the same. You trigger automations either through the platform, or directly through webbooks, so little pouches of information that you can send from your CRM like Klaviyo, giving you unlimited possibilities as long as you have opt-in. So that's great. And what's a bit about how you're going to use it a bit differently you know because I imagine you're not going to send the same stuff you send by email or sms on WhatsApp. I think you can go a lot further, you can react to messages. It's commitment, it's too good. One is engagement and two is rich content. So engagement gives up check out let's say, you're going to be able to have buttons, the customer is going to click, you're going to have scenarios where he's going to receive responses that will be personalized and so on. Okay. That has nothing to do with it. And then the richness of the content, so we have lots of customers where we do things like send a voice message, send a video and so on. Yeah. And you couldn't do that with SMS, you can't really do that with email. Yes. And so you can do stuff and then you have the open rate and engagement on WhatsApp which is today which is an anomaly, it's incredible. You've got a crazy engagement rate. Most of our customers run campaigns, they say you want to join the WhatsApp club and so on, and that's how we're going to engage them. That's fine. And then update the check-out on your site to embase WhatsApp, update your pop-up. So you see, in the end, it's not so much the tool you use. What's important is to have a good fit with your tool and to feel that you're a good companion. Because, on the other hand, there are new solutions to be found between those who use it a lot and those who hardly use it at all. It's not the same ROI. Yeah, of course, of course. And yeah, no, really interesting. And then maybe soon, we'll see that there are also possibilities with fit tools like generating opt-ins on WhatsApp and getting people to do other cool stuff. Very nice. Yeah, very, very good. This is going to be, this is going to be very, very cool. We can't wait to get into it. And then listen, cool, we're having a great conversation. I'm very happy. We've talked about a lot of topics, and I think it's going to be really helpful for brands that are wondering about benchmarks, things to look out for in their emails. How to choose the right CRM tool, what about SMS, WhatsApp and so on, and also the slightly more technical part about how I pace my sequences, my messaging, the frequency of contact and so on. So very cool, very much value added. And then I like to finish with this, it's a bit typical, like if you had any advice at the top, so something you said earlier that I think was pretty cool is: when you send an email, I read your email out loud and thirty percent. Basically, it's something you could write down as the eleven commandments for emails. Do you have another one just like it that fits your mind? In the same vein, to follow on from that, and I think you should do it b to b too. You wait, I mean, you see, I write my e-mails when it's important stuff, a bit structured and all, and I come back to it the next day. I'm a bit smarter. Okay. I tell my team to make a coffee and come back before proofreading. Okay. You take a step back, you know. This morning I sent an e-mail that was a bit long and I just changed three things where I thought it wasn't very well written and I hadn't seen it yesterday, you see, and it took me two minutes so I really optimized my time. I find that interesting. Okay. And then to have fun, to think about, it's the customer experience. Every time you talk to me, you talk about customer experience. So, what could you do that's fun, et cetera, and follow brands that are doing fun things to try and get inspired by them. But then a lot of good ideas that people can come up with just because they actually trust each other and try stuff. Yeah, we're not afraid to try things, well, things that are a bit out of the ordinary too. You have the opportunity to talk to your customers live by email, SMS or WhatsApp. Yeah, what could I do that's so cool? Yeah, so cool. And then, you were talking, yeah so that's the promise we made at the beginning of the episode. Do you have any brands that we can follow in their stratum, emailing CRM, etc. that you'd recommend going to as soon as they're inspired? Yeah, so I could give you a tip and I'm not affiliated, but I think his tool is really good and we use it a lot at email club, it's called Panoramata. Okay. Which is a tool put together by Mehdi that I highly recommend. In fact, you type in the brands you follow and you don't have to go through the hassle of keeping them in folders on Gmail and so on, but you have a calendar view. So I'm a fashion brand, I think Cézanne is stylish or Balzac is stylish. I'll click on what they sent last year during the month of September because I'll see all the stuff. That's very, very cool. It's really nice. And then there are lots of tools that allow you to do that in other markets. Why yes. I think it's cool because they address the French market particularly well. Okay. And when brands are missing, you write to them and they add them. That's great. So that's cool, it's worth a hundred euros a month. Okay. But it's worth a hundred times that. Ah yes, it's too good. And I'm not really an affiliate, I'm just a user, but I think it's so cool. It's a real time-saver, I guess, for your benchmark. For tracking brands. You sign a client who sells a distributor of swimming pool products. It's particularly interesting for people like us too, but you're also a brand. What's, what's, who's on the market, who's doing interesting stuff, okay, I can go and look. I've got such and such a season, is there anything I hadn't thought of? And so it has an impact in the US, really good emails, that's one of the solutions, but there are plenty of others that allow you to do that. And then for brands that are particularly good, I could advertise for my customers because you'll find my customers on my site and there are lots of them. The thing's up to date and that's it. For example, there's Unbottle, there's WhatBaters too, which has a very nice idea. Unbottle is very strong on content. Since the beginning, before she started working with us too, Sarah, she's very attached to her content and we work a lot with them on newsletter content. Also the automations are very advanced but really they're very strong on content. Watch Matters is very good at segmentation, automation and so on. After nine-hundred caires, springs, these are companies that sell subscriptions. So they're often very good at automation, which means you get a lot of very advanced stuff. And then there are the people who, to quote the people who don't work with us, you can follow in the super-aggressive guys, you'll have Cabaïa or I think they're working with you too, Nubiance. Nubiance, yes. I love Vladimir and he's aggressive, you know. Nice things and then Kabaya we like a lot. I get on well with Marie, she does nice things, in particular they're well developed, they're Shopify market, et cetera. So you've got lots of good practices. And then, there are plenty, depending on your industry. It's true that they do some pretty cool stuff. I got an e-mail from Emilien telling you that you'd abandoned your basket, and so on. So I replied to that. Extremely Marie in copy and so I managed to have a meeting with them. Good point. So don't hesitate to do that. I mustn't say it too much, otherwise I'll get pricked, I'll get my question pricked. But they're, they're good, you see. They're good and they've always been good and they've always done it. Émilien is very good at marketing. He's always made really good stuff. He's always taken it to heart. Yeah, very good. On LinkedIn with pleasure, I try to post on LinkedIn from time to time, but where we share content, ideas. I hope I'll be more visible this year. Too good. Well, look, we hope to be able to do that too. And lots of great stuff to follow between e-mail club and Loyoly in the months to come. Thank you, thank you very much for the invitation and thank you for your support too, because we're working together on lots of customers. And so, as I mentioned earlier, that's part of our WhatsApp tool. It's very important for us. It allows us to get the most out of the tool. So thank you very much. Thank you very much. Very cool. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to this episode of Loyali Talks all the way through. I hope you enjoyed it and found lots of tips to try out for your brand. If so, subscribe to make sure you don't miss the next one. Tell people about it and leave us a five-star rating on Apple Podcast, it helps us a lot. Finally, if you need to increase your LTV, don't hesitate to contact me on LinkedIn or on our dot I o site. See you soon.
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